Friday, July 07, 2006

Olmert vs Mash'al


..............................................................................

Olmert ( from Tel Aviv )and Mash'al ( from Syria ) are giving the orders . . . and those kids are paying the price . . .

Raise your voice to stop this pointless violence . . .

116 Comments:

At 9:44 AM, July 07, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

Hey Raccoon :

/Next. Mate... Palestinian Muslim terrorism was a non-stop fact since 1922. Long, long before '67 or even '48. Members of my family were being murdered by Palestinian Muslim terrorist long before '48, just for being Jewish and wanting self-determination. We both know it's not about "occupation" - the PLO was created before '67, with the goal of destroying Israel../

All the arab attacks on jews befor 1948 were because Jews were coming from all over the world and STEALING palestinian land.
Period.

 
At 9:49 AM, July 07, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

Raccoon :

/I know that IDF is doing everything in its power to avoid civilian casualties. And I strongly suspect that the terrorists are doing everything in THEIR power to maximize civilian casualties../

Thats y IDF started its operation in Gaza by attacking the power plant and destroying the infrastructure, attacking schools and universities. You are follwoing wt IDF is doing in Gaza now, there is no worse policy that the collective punishment that your IDF leaders have been using constantly.

....
/Oh... and as for this operation... the people of Israel are sick and tired of the Israeli government not doing enough to protect them. Israelis look for their own - and they have not forgotten nor forgiven the 3 kidnapped soldiers in Lebanon../

The Israeli public has not forgotten the THREE kidnapped in lebanon and the few in Paestine ?
Did Palestinians forget the 10000 prisoners in Israeli prisons ??

No comparison man.

 
At 11:18 AM, July 07, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

You are a liar. That is right, a liar. Let me quote you where you specifically lied and you know you lied.

All the arab attacks on jews befor 1948 were because Jews were coming from all over the world and STEALING palestinian land.
Period.


LIE. In fact, Jews lawfully purchased land from absentee landlords prior to 1948. They did not STEAL land. Moreover, attacks were not just against modern settlors, but were also against Jews who lived in Israel since time immemoriam. See: Hebron

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/hebron29.html

Martin Buber's open letter to Gandhi re: Palestine - about intentions of Jews by 1939.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/buber1.html

Many more links on the issue:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/preistoc.html

The bottom line is you are flat out WRONG in your history, and you are educated enough to KNOW you are wrong.

Re: the thousands of prisoners. They attacked Israel. They deserve to be imprisoned. They are not "political prisonoers." They are terrorist detainees - hardly deserving of any comparison with Shalit or any of the Israeli prisoners/people murdered, who DID NOTHING to attack Gaza or the Palestinians.

Attacking a power plant is a very MILD thing to do given the hope of saving a human life. Would you prefer an all out street battle where civilians are GUARANTEED to be harmed?

 
At 12:01 PM, July 07, 2006, Blogger Oleh Yahshan said...

Can I ask a stupid Question??
Where were these kids When they were hit? Not that I am justifing it - but we know that your "Militints" use kids as cover, or like to run into crowds when being fired on (BTW - BIG violation of Int. law - using your own people as cover and not using any sort of uniform)

Also in regards to 1948 - This was decided by the U.N - it was not a Jewish Decidision - are you telling me that the Arabs just ignored the U.N Resolution??

Also I am still waiting for an answer on how you see the solution and what you see as occupation - Since it seems to me that you think Tel Aviv is in "occupied Palestine" also.

 
At 1:30 PM, July 07, 2006, Blogger thecutter said...

So, knocking out a power plant is not going to harm anyone? How about getting the instrumentation in the hospitals to work? How about other life support systems that depend upon electricity? Destroying the infrastructures of 750,000 people is NOTHING to you? I bet you must throw a hissy fit when someone drags a key across the paint job on your car, but the basic needs of hundreds of thousands of people seems to be rather unimportant to you. Could it be because they are "lesser humans"?
Think about it before you spout out more ridiculous crap. Try to muster up some humanity, if you have any left.

And, you really shouldn't call your host a liar. I would never have the patience that he has with you lot. I admire him, and wish him well. He at least is trying very hard to show you what life is like on "the other side". Try to respect what he is saying. I think he has seen pain you can't even imagine.

 
At 2:42 PM, July 07, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Osaid:

Sorry for calling you a liar, I got very emotional. But you are flat out WRONG with your facts.

Cutter:

Cutting power is one option. An all out street battle, guaranteeing civilian deaths, is another option. Is that you advocate? I think it is. This way Palestinians can claim victim status. After all, the terrorists want Israel to kill Palestinian civilians.

http://cultureforall.blogspot.com/2006/06/terrorists-want-israel-to-kill.html

 
At 2:43 PM, July 07, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Oh, and if the Palestinians are upset, they should blame the monsters who kidnapped Shalit, rather than the Israelis, who never would have acted, but for the kidnapping.

All I ask is to stop the phony victim status.

 
At 3:54 PM, July 07, 2006, Blogger Oleh Yahshan said...

Cutter,
thank you for clearifying that you are only technocly Jewish but not really. I would have hated to be grouped with someone like you.
The Fact that you don't actually like the Idea of being Jewish and that you don't practice it in any way, just shows how ignorant you really are. I can understand much better now why you act the way you do. Sad as it may be.

BTW - I am not sure the Palestinians would want someone like you amongst them either - I think they are much better than that.

 
At 5:40 PM, July 07, 2006, Blogger umkahlil said...

Osaid,

Azmi Bishara has written an excellent analysis regarding and mentions Syria and Mash'al in part:

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2006/802/op2.htm

Best Regards,
umkahlil

 
At 7:08 PM, July 07, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

Hello

umkhalil: Hello and welcome to my blog. I am opening the link you provided now.

Miss R : Calm down a little.Those jews who 'bought' land from 'absentee landlords' suddenly turned to be the "original owners' and the land was 'a gift from God to the". Few years later they kicked 750.000 of the 'landlords' ! and destroyed 400 villages...

this is what happened. Lets not have deep discussions about it. you siddenly acknowledge the UN resolution demanding establishing 2 states (1948), which was rejected by Arab states.

Then the wars.

NOW : you whole existense as a state ( Israel ) solely depends on a UN resolution. This is the only and ONLY reason why anyone might accept your presence in the middle east. remember that you were a minority a hundred years ago but you managed to 'buy' the whole country !!!

Stop calling the UN the way you call it. And dont keep ignoring the UN resolutions that urged Israel to :
give refugees their rights.
withdraw to 1967 borders.


A note :
/.." All I ask is to stop the phony victim status."../
many of the posts and the comments you write do not suport this claim.

 
At 7:36 PM, July 07, 2006, Blogger s.pet said...

hi, osaid. i'm enjoying your blog.

miss r:

for the record, the vast majority of the original hebron jews were not zionist and did not support the zionist state. they lived peacefully with arabs for years, until the world zionist organization lobbied to realize the dreams of a militant few and pass them off on the international community as the aspiration of an entire group of people. by the time the modern settlement movement came around, most of hebron's original jews left hebron, not wanting to have anything to do with the violence and racism promoted by the followers of rabbi kook's kooky clan.

and i agree: you really should learn some blog manners.

 
At 7:39 PM, July 07, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

Oleh :
good day

/..Where were these kids when they were hit??../

Ahh..that was your question. These kids were HOME. In their HOMES. they didnt go to face your tanks, the israeli tanks entered their villigaes and camps.

Maybe Gideon Levy could answer you ;
/..Collective punishment is illegitimate and it does not have a smidgeon of intelligence. Where will the inhabitants of Beit Hanun run? With typical hardheartedness the military reporters say they were not "expelled" but that it was "recommended" they leave, for the benefit, of course, of those running for their lives.../

 
At 8:54 PM, July 07, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Osaid:

The logic you are stating is nonlogic.

The UN of 1947 is not the UN today. Today, almost every nation in the world is in the UN, including various genocidal nations such as Sudan, and extreme human rights violators, such as Saudi Arabia and Iran. They have delegitimized what was once a legitimate institution of nations.

You have not disproven my claim re: the abstentee landlords. Zionists do not say their claim rests SOLELY on buying land lawfully. They say it is twofold - bibical, and also from having legitimately purchased land.

In 1948, instead of accepting a two state solution, Palestinians left Israel on their own in order to wage war upon the nation. That means they GAVE UP any right they had to the land, once they left. Those who stayed are now full Israeli citizens, called Israeli Arabs.

The fact is Israel did NOT "steal" land, and I might add, the Arabs DID steal Jewish land. When Israel was partitioned, any land belonging to Jews in the West Bank was immediately annexed to Jordan, who unlawfully took over the West Bank instead of giving the Palestinians their own state. (which they never had previously, incidently - Palestinians really are "Trans Jordanians," if one wanted to be accurate)

If you do not accept the basic reality of how Israel was formed, then I must conclude that you do not believe in the State of Israel and do not recognize Israel's right to exist. Please prove me wrong here.

But if that is in fact an accurate representation of your views, you are exactly part of the problem, and perpetuating the conflict.

s.pet:

Osaid is not stating facts and misleading the world with his blog, either intentionally or not. I have no patience for those who do so, and yet claim they are "for peace and understanding."

 
At 11:18 PM, July 07, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Osiad. Do you understand the social system that was in place in "Palestine" and how the Jewish people baught that land?

Read this. (again!)

 
At 11:20 PM, July 07, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

Hello S.pet and welcome to our dialogue here.

Miss r :
try to be less emotional and more understandig. Stop telling the same stories you have and get in dialoguw not GIVING us what you wrongly think as the only truth.

I do believe in Israels right to exist. How can I proof that? tell me how !

 
At 11:22 PM, July 07, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Let me summarise. There have been Jewish people livning in Israel for over 2000 years. As Zionism grew Jewish people started purchasing land from the Arab land-owners who acted as feudal lords.

See Page 3

 
At 11:29 PM, July 07, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

Steven

welcome back.
I ams still waiting to add a post about your proposed 5 steps. I never ignored that.

The link you provided ; this is total bias. This is an Israeli story, one sided story. Just like the posts in 'culture for all' by Miss R.

Arabs were acting violently against jews in the early 1900's because jews were taking their land, and you know that. Anyway I do not justify any of th very wrong acts that happened against the jewish people , especially the Hebron massacre in the 20's. Note that I am not giving you a personal point of view here because so many Palestinians agree with me on this particular point ( look for the Hebron families who helped hiding and protecting jews in hebron massacre, for example ).. You see, Steven, that even atthe worst time in our history there were Palestinians who believed in peace and nonviolence and the rights of the original jewish people to live in Palestine.

the type of people whom we are dealing with today ( settlers ) are totally different and are only contributing to worsening the picture and calling for more violence.

 
At 11:32 PM, July 07, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

Hello

Miss R ;
/They are terrorist detainees - hardly deserving of any comparison with Shalit or any of the Israeli prisoners/people murdered, who DID NOTHING to attack Gaza or the Palestinians.../

What about the terrorist Israelis who are attacking Palestinians constantly ( settlers )?? So you simply say that all the 10 000 palestinians in israeli prisons are terrorists and Shalit is the angle, right ??

What interesting ideas you have !

 
At 11:39 PM, July 07, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Osaid, these links are factual. Please address the points that are made on that website - if you do not agree with something on that website please show me evidence which contradicts it.

If it checks out I will learn something; then I will email Francisco and tell him to correct his article. :)

Notice how Fransisco backs up everything he says with references to make it easy for you to check what he is saying and see his sources.

*****

O: "Arabs were acting violently against jews in the early 1900's because jews were taking their land, and you know that."

No, I don't know that.

Did you read page 3 completely?

*****

O: "You see, Steven, that even at the worst time in our history there were Palestinians who believed in peace and nonviolence and the rights of the original jewish people to live in Palestine."

I do not generalise about "all" of any people. I am, however, aware what a minority is. Oscar Schindler was a minority. These Arabs were a minority. We do not judge the Nazis by the actions of Oscar Schindler. Comprende?

 
At 11:54 PM, July 07, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Osaid:

You and I both know that the people in Israeli jails are there for very good reasons. For the mild examples:

"Sana Shachada, 27 from the Kalandia refugee camp confessed in her investigation that together with Kahira Sa'adi she was involved in the smuggling of a suicide bomber."

"Arin Achmad, a 20 year old student wore tight pants and a stomach bearing shirt in an attempt to disguise her Palestinian Arab origin in order to help the suicide bomber, aged 17 execute a suicide bombing in Rishon Lezion on 22.5.02. In the terrorist attack, many civilians were murdered and many were wounded:"

So, these prisoners are in jail because they aided murderers and have blood on their hands.

For a more sadistic example:

"Female security prisoner Amana Muna, who is serving time at the Sharon prison for her involvement in the murder of an Israeli youth, will be transferred to the Neveh Tirza prison for attacking a fellow inmate.

Muna used the Internet to lure 16-year-old Ofir Rahum from Ashkelon to Ramallah, where he was ambushed and shot to death by two Fatah terrorists."

 
At 12:48 AM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

Steven :

Administrative detention in Israel
See this link :

http://www.btselem.org/English/Administrative%5FDetention/

Something that you cant find in a democratic country

 
At 12:50 AM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Osaid:

Israeli citizens in the West Bank who attack Palestinians are jailed for it, if they do so without provocation. This contrasts with the Palestinians and how they are treated like heroes when they attack Israel.

As far as Palestinians who are jailed...provide me proof that ANYONE in the prisons is not a terrorist. That is right. I ask for proof about even ONE person.

 
At 12:54 AM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Osaid Rasheed:

Excuse me, but Palestinians are not citizens of Israel. They are at war with Israel, and citizens of the Palestinian territories. Hence, there is no reason why Israel has to charge them and hold them for trial, as there is never an obligation to have full trials of NON CITIZENS in ANY democratic state.

 
At 12:54 AM, July 08, 2006, Anonymous The Raccoon said...

I have no more patience for this. It's pointless. The tiny minority of people like Osaid are offset by the psychotic majority.

The sane people in the West are offset by kapos like cutter.

I am sick and tired of it. Eventually, as I said before, the Palestinians will succeed in what they have been trying to do for by far too long now - kill lots of Jews really fast. Then the masks and the gloves will be off, and this malodorous mire of propaganda, history revision and disgusting moral equivalence will be dried by fire.

Pfeh.

We're all dead men walking.


PS

Today I went to Jerusalem, Osaid, to see the houses in which many generations of my family lived. My forefathers were enslaved and oppressed by Muslims - and please, people, don't start lying and saying that the Ottomans were nice and cuddly. My more recent forefathers were oppressed and shot by the British, and their kin who wanted to return home had their ships drowned. And then the Arabs started their pogroms, and din't stop until now.

I have no more patience. 2000 years is too long.

Last point -

We are back to stay. Nobody and nothing can take us from our land and our land from us. Never again.

 
At 1:12 AM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

Raccoon

hello

I know what you are talking about.

/..Today I went to Jerusalem, Osaid, to see the houses in which many generations of my family lived. My forefathers were enslaved and oppressed by Muslims - and please, people, don't start lying and saying that the Ottomans were nice and cuddly. My more recent forefathers were oppressed and shot by the British, and their kin who wanted to return home had their ships drowned. And then the Arabs started their pogroms, and din't stop until now.../

the situation for the jews in the early 1900 was so horrible I know. Most of the suffering was directly related to Arab nationalism and stupid religious fundementalism.

I do feel bad thinking how was it these days.
Lets not lose hope raccoon and at least explain the situation to our kids and friends and all those whom we can influence, and stop these blind calls for hatred.

I am not naieve, surely not you too, to look like a fool infront of all these calls to 'fight' or 'attack' or 'kill'.. we both know all are wrong.

We are doomed to live here and we have to do wtever it takes to make ourlives better. If not ourlives, then maybe the lives of our kids and grandchildren.
good day accoon
:)
:)

 
At 1:16 AM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 1:19 AM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

Hello Miss R

Y asked for one prrof, here are few hundred cases as admitted by IDF officials :
..............................

Statistics on administrative detention

According to figures provided by the IDF to Hamoked: Center for the Defence of the Individual, the IDF is holding, as of 3 Jan., 2006, 741 Palestinians in Administrative Detention.

The IDF is also holding Palestinians against whom administrative detention orders have been issued, but not yet approved by a Judge. The IDF does not consider these individuals to be administrative detainees.

According to IPS data provided to B'Tselem, the IPS was holding, as of January 1, 2006, 53 Palestinians in administrative detention .

Since February 2005, the Prisons Service has refused to provide B'Tselem with figures on detainees and prisoners on a regular, free of charge basis, as it did previously. Since then B'Tselem had to request the information monthly, under the Law on Freedom of information.

The following table details the number of Palestinian residents of the Occupied Territories who were held by Israel in administrative detention at various dates, during the years 2001-2005:


go to ;
www.btselem.org/english/
Administrative_Detention/
Statistics.asp

An Israeli site

 
At 1:21 AM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Osaid:

That site only provides raw numbers, but NOT proof that in fact the Palestinian detainees are not terrorists.

 
At 1:25 AM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

Miss R :

You have certain ideas that you you are never ready to leave.

It looks impossible to convince you of anything.

I dont know if there is anypoint to you for talking with me.You are never ready to accept or understand others i am afraid.

Take things easily and TRY to look behind the reasons that drive me to write what i am writing. ( I dont know what accusations will follow from you after this sentence )

good day Miss R

 
At 1:26 AM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Osaid: "Administrative detention in Israel - Something that you cant find in a democratic country."

Yes, you can. You certianly have a dreamy idea about what a democracy is.

Further more, as Red says, the Arabs are at war with Israel. If hundereds of rockets fired into Israeli homes are not a declaration of war, I don't know what is. "Hence, there is no reason why Israel has to charge them and hold them for trial, as there is never an obligation to have full trials of NON CITIZENS in ANY democratic state."

A fun link for you Osaid: Palestinian choose jail.

*****

Raccoon: "I am sick and tired of it. Eventually, as I said before, the Palestinians will succeed in what they have been trying to do for by far too long now - kill lots of Jews really fast. Then the masks and the gloves will be off, and this malodorous mire of propaganda, history revision and disgusting moral equivalence will be dried by fire."

I fear you are correct about that, however I do not think that the historic revisionism will go. Hating the Jewish people is a culture trend the world has maintained for atleast 2000 years.

Not to be -ve atall.

My own family have got a dose from the Arabs and the British too.

Raccoon: "We are back to stay. Nobody and nothing can take us from our land and our land from us. Never again."

Am Yisrael Chai.

 
At 1:28 AM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Osaid: "we have to do whatever it takes to make ourlives better. If not ourlives, then maybe the lives of our kids and grandchildren."

That was nice. :)

 
At 1:33 AM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

That link was to an incomplete article, here is the full article - Palestinian choose jail.

You may have read this over at SM's.

 
At 3:05 AM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Tsedek said...

Miss R. : Israeli citizens in the West Bank who attack Palestinians are jailed for it,....
Euhmm... no. Maybe if they kill someone, but if not so then they don't get jailed for it. I've seen the most disgusting docu about how Palestinians in the West Bank didn't get to work their land and harvest their crops being stopped by ONE (!!!) religious fanatic colonist sitting on top of the hill in a caravan and shooting at them!!! They were all old people and couldn't work their land for ages... People from a nearby kibbutz came out to help them protect against that insane settler - the IDF arrived also - they were given a few hours to work the land.... And, that was IT! When asked why the IDF did not protect them, they were told this was "noman's land" they had no jurisdiction orwhathaveyou about it.

Same goes for uprooting olive trees. By Jove! People I know been there to help Palestinians harvest their trees and THEY AS WELL got shot at by settlers.

You're living a dream. The provocation and unfairness is just heartclinging.

+++++++++++++

Osaid, I get a little bit the feeling you are not that much aware of the history here? At least I don't see you giving any convincing evidence that contradicts what I used to think of as propaganda-sites but who quote arabic sources of that time often so that it's hard not to take it as true...

http://jic.tau.ac.il/moreshet/palestineEn.html

This is the site of the Palestine Post (in English) where you can find neewsarticles from the time of the 1930's and some and onwards. They are RealTime news articles - and although not reporting the news from the 1900's - they definitely leave no doubt that "the" muslim palestinians most certainly were not that innocent and naive as the other side of the propaganda machine would like everybody to believe.

Steven, the link you gave about the kids preferring jail was VERY interesting, thank you. Unfortunately I don't think it's funny though :( I think it's very sad .... If we could just split between "bad people" and "good people" i/o between "Palestinians" and "Israeli's" - it would be a dream come true....

Tse.

 
At 4:19 AM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Tse: "Steven, the link you gave about the kids preferring jail was VERY interesting, thank you. Unfortunately I don't think it's funny though :( I think it's very sad .... If we could just split between 'bad people' and 'good people' i/o between 'Palestinians' and 'Israelis' - it would be a dream come true...."

Heya Tse.

I just want to say that I do not split the world cleanly in two parts. Not 'all' Palestinians are bad guys, not 'all' Israeli's are good guys. It is a matter of proportions.

I am glad you liked the article - that web archive of the Palestine Post you linked to is priceless. Thank you.

 
At 6:52 AM, July 08, 2006, Anonymous The Raccoon said...

Another lovely present from the Palestinian Authority to the Palestinian people.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150885942858&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Pfeh.

 
At 7:20 AM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Tse, Reccoon, Oleh, others:

Give this link a click and scroll down to comment #36.

 
At 7:21 AM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Good link Raccoon. :)

 
At 7:55 AM, July 08, 2006, Anonymous The Raccoon said...

Osaid -

You know what the solution is. It is simple, but it takes courage and will.

Your words move from those of a true man of peace with a desire for coexistence and prosperity;
To those of a brain-washed hater who is more interested in honor upheld with lies than a solution.

I do not know if the "other" Osaid is acting the way he does because he doesn't wish to be dragged through the streets of Hebron, bleeding from every orifice, on his way to a painful and degrading end dangling from a streetlight. Or maybe your really are suffering from a dichtomy of thought - an ucorrgibile disease.

Either way - you know what the solution is. And it doesn't include any violence, brother. Only communication and organization.

I wash my hands of this.

 
At 8:17 AM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

raccoon :
/Your words move from those of a true man of peace with a desire for coexistence and prosperity;
To those of a brain-washed hater who is more interested in honor upheld with lies than a solution.../

wt are u trying to say..i didnt get the point, excuse my ignorance

 
At 8:41 AM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

Miss R :
this si for you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JdhiWmz0BE&mode
=related&search=Palestine

 
At 10:10 AM, July 08, 2006, Blogger s.pet said...

miss r:

prove to me that you are not a terrorist.

 
At 10:20 AM, July 08, 2006, Blogger s.pet said...

one question for miss r:

Your profile reads:
"My one intolerance is intolerance. I will not be tolerant of intolerance, and do not consider religion to be an excuse for intolerance."

You do not consider religion to be an excuse for intolerance, or you do not consider Islam to be an excuse for intolerance? Because many Jews have been using religion to justify their bad behavior for decades now.

As for examples of Palestinians who are arrested without charges and not involved in terrorism, I know of a few who have spent at least one night in administrative detention this week alone, from here in the Bethlehem area. For more information regarding this process, I would like to point you in the direction of two books:

1) Stolen Youth: The Politics of Israel's Detention of Palestinian Children
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0745321623/sr=8-4/qid=1152342668/ref=sr_1_4/104-0347676-8599114?ie=UTF8

2)Courting Conflict: The Israeli Military Court System in the West Bank and Gaza
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0520241940/qid=1152342840/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-0347676-8599114?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

Enjoy!

 
At 10:26 AM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

s.pet:

Your comment is just idiotic.

Osaid:

Render has proven where your true allegances lay. And I want to add the video is bogus. I used to believe that Arabs and Jews lived in peace. That is a LIE. In fact, Jews suffered under Ottoman rule for centuries. When Muslims ruled over Jews, Jews were treated like second class citizens, and had to pay a "non believer tax." They were known as "dhimmis."

Here is a wikipedia article about this (neutrality disputed, but then again, every controversial wiki article is, and this is factually true, and provides extensive links backing up what it says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi)

In almost every statement about history you have shown to be either willfully ignorant or just a knowing propogator of lies.

One more thing. It is not that Israel was "empty" when it was settled. Rather, it was mostly rural, and did not have large numbers of people living there. Jews purchased the land off absentee landlords - helllooooo the Ottoman Empire was not exactly pro-Jew, and would never have allowed a Jew to just TAKE land from anyone. The British Empire, while better than the Ottomans, still would never have allowed such a thing. USE YOUR BRAIN. USE LOGIC.

 
At 10:29 AM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

s.pet:

Has it occurred to you that many of the Palestinian youths WANT to be jailed? Look at the article Steven linked.

Has it also occurred to you that youths regularly throw stones (which can kill) at Israelis and are not exactly puppy dogs?

Tsedek is the only one here who posted ANYTHING that has given me pause. (namely, about the settlors in the West Bank disrupting Palestinian farming)

 
At 11:00 AM, July 08, 2006, Blogger DesertPeace said...

Osaid, I congratulate you for the patience you have shown here in dealing with some of the moronic comments I have seen.
One day you must give me lessons in that.

 
At 11:45 AM, July 08, 2006, Blogger s.pet said...

miss r:

this is my last comment on this posting, because it is hopeless to argue with someone who relies on personal attacks and cannot have an adult conversation. absolutism in its many forms.

yes, i am aware that palestinian kids throw stones. how am i aware? i see it with my own eyes. palestinian children throw stones, STONES, at tanks, at armored israeli hummers, and at soldiers in bulletproof vests shooting canisters of teargas into schoolyards. how do i know? i have seen it.

when have you heard of an isreali soldier killed by the stone of a palestinian child? ever? so, why do you think palestinian children continue to throw stones when they know that stones aren't really effective in combat?

i'll tell you. the palestinians have been stripped of control over their own livelihoods. completely disempowered, they are left with two options: fight back the only way they know how, or submit and be complicit in their own disempowerment. when palestinian children throw stones, they are demonstrating with what means are left to them that they will not submit to the occupation. they seek empowerment wherever they can find it.

israeli settler children throw stones at palestinians and are neither arrested nor condemned, but that doesn't seem to make the international news, or your analytical radar.

 
At 11:53 AM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Tsedek said...

I think I'm losing grip on these discussions, man you all move fast!!

Steven, the comments in the link you provided are not numbered... what comment are you talking about?

Tse.

 
At 1:21 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger umkahlil said...

Regarding land ownership (not sure if this is the right thread): For information on Zionist and Palestinian Land Ownership, 1945:

http://umkahlil.blogspot.com/2005/09/zionist-and-palestinian-land-ownership.html

 
At 1:28 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Do you have any evidence for those statistics? Where did you get them?

For other people, I think the first article I sent on the history of the Palestinian movement is more useful.

 
At 1:28 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

s.pet:

Rocks in fact DO kill. Here is an OLD list of Israelis killed by rocks. (it is two years old, and there are very likely more deaths since this)

http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/mideastdispatches/archives/000172.html

DesertPeace:

Being proved wrong really tries your patience, huh?

 
At 1:32 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

I might add to s.pet that I would like to see proof of Israeli settlors throwing stones. These people are constantly under attack and are shot at while driving their kids to school. If in fact there are Israeli settlor stone throwing, it is clear it is not even close to being on the scale of Palestinian stone throwing, AND, I question whether it is in self defense. So show me your sources.

 
At 1:35 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

I find your profile very revealing unkahill.

 
At 1:35 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

"DP, Being proved wrong really tries your patience, huh?"

LoL :)

 
At 1:36 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

One last thing, to s.pet:

Your justification of terror is disgusting. You are also wrong about being "stripped of control." The only reason they do not have their own country is BECAUSE of their terror. You are feeding into the Palestinian victim mythology, and it's disgusting and shameful.

 
At 1:38 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Heya Miss R:

"I might add to s.pet that I would like to see proof of Israeli settlors throwing stones."

There are Israelis who throw stones too. This is, however, a significant minority. In contrast, attacking Israelis, especially with stones, is a cultural feature of the Palestinians.

Does anyone need media links for this?

 
At 1:40 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Steven,

The bottom line of why I wanted a citation is that I question whether the stone throwing is in self defense or not.

 
At 1:53 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

I think that is not self-defence in the majority of cases.

 
At 1:55 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Link

This story, however, is not representative of Israelis.

 
At 1:56 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 2:00 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Steven,

In the link you cited, there is something very key mentioned...

Jewish settlers threw stones at Palestinian houses in the West Bank city of Hebron and tried to force their way into the town's market on Saturday before Israeli troops were called in to stop them, military and police spokesmen said.

On their way to the market, or casbah, settlers entered a Palestinian home to eject its inhabitants, but were removed by police, police said.


In other words, the IDF and Israeli police do not just allow rock throwing without taking action to stop it.

I want to add that I will concede there obviously are Israeli rock throwers and your link suggested that that incident in particular was not in self defense. But it is clear this is a MINORITY, and Israel acts in response to quell it.

In contrast, Palestinians have a culture of praising the rock throwers, and reward children who throw rocks, rather than punish them.

 
At 2:27 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Miss R, I concur.

 
At 3:03 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger sykadilya said...

Raccoon,

An Israeli spokesperson was on the news yesterday saying that the IDF have circulated some pieces of paper, warning people of Gaza from an Israeli attack on NORTHERN Gaza, a week before the attack.
Right, well firstly, I have not heard of such papers, announced on the news. Secondly, why would the IDF target CENTRAL Gaza and destroy the electricity generator to at least half of the Gaza Strip - in addition to destroying infrastructure and killing civilians? Thirdly, the Israeli spokesperson said that they have never targeted innocent civilians and that all those who got shot during the Summer Rain Operation were armed. Do you believe that bollocks? Have you seen the photos? Have you read some Humanitarian and Israeli violations of HRs reports on Gaza recently? Have you checked the statistics?
And what is that about the "terrorists" doing what they can to maximize civilian casualties? If you meant Palestinian casualties by that, well sorry but you must be insane. If you meant to say Israeli casualties, ha ha ha, you are kidding yourself by thinking that the two powers fighting are actually equal to arms and support. Sorry to break this through to you, but Israel is the 4th biggest military zone in the world.
Ques. Have you ever left your comfy chair and thought about visiting the West Bank, at least? I will not suggest to visit Gaza, as for it will make ur head explode with the shocking realities u'll face there. Should take it one step at a time.
As long as you are talking on behalf of the people of Israel, have u seen what is said on these websites;
http://www.alternativenews.org
http://www.gush-shalom.org/
http://www.refusersolidarity.net/
http://www.icahd.org/eng/
Salaam

---
Miss R,

Concerning Israeli settler stone-throwers in Hebron, they are very much encouraged by their parents.
O, yes! There is a documentary I say recently, produced by the AIC - see http://www.alternativenews.org - that shows that clearly.

Salaam

---
For all,
Check this article out on the Bethlehem Bloggers: Voices from the Bethlehem Ghetto;
http://bethlehemghetto.blogspot.com/2006/07/summer-rain-over-gaza-waters-seeds-of.html
Salaam
---
Osaid Rasheed,

I found your comment on my blog today. Cheers mate!
I also studied at BU.

You're doing a very good work here. Lots of comments and visitors. I'm impressed!

I found this link to the Wall Of Hate - it's the same short documentary u have the link for on ur blog.
http://www.thewallofhate.org/film/thewall.wmv

Keep up the good work.

Salaam

 
At 3:24 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger DesertPeace said...

Ignorance and dtupidity eats away at my patience. I am proven right by the dropping of every Israeli bomb, by the fireing of every Israeli gun, by the MURDER of every inocent Palestinian.
Zionism at one time was declared racist by the UN... today it can be declared hazerdous to human beings.

 
At 3:47 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Heya sykadilya.

*****

You are mostly repeating things we have already addressed elsewhere. Go to some previous posts and you will find your answers.

*****

"Right, well firstly, I have not heard of such papers [ie. Israel dropped papers to warn Palestinians of an attack]"

Quote Leaflet 1:
“Where are the terror organizations leading you? How much longer are you going to allow terrorists to control your lives and your future? The military response will worsen as long as the firing continues.” - Guardian Unlimited; 3 April, 2006

Leaflet 2:
"The terrorist actions originating from your areas are forcing the Israel Defense Forces to respond harshly to those who are subjecting the citizens of the State of Israel to danger.

We call on the Palestinian Authority to shoulder its responsibility to prevent these criminal acts.

We warn you of the danger of remaining in the areas which are being used to launch terrorist actions and we advise you to leave your homes.

We are not responsible for the consequences if you ignore our warning."
Israel Defense Forces
- IDF; 27 September, 2005

*****

"Have you ever left your comfy chair and thought about visiting the West Bank, at least? I will not suggest to visit Gaza, as for it will make ur head explode with the shocking realities u'll face there."

You just said that Gush Katif, which is 100% in the control of the Palestinians, is worse than Judea and Samarra.

*****

"O, yes! There is a documentary I say recently, produced by the AIC - see http://www.alternativenews.org - that shows that clearly."

Oh, so you saw a documentary... that settles it then!

 
At 3:48 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

DP: "Zionism at one time was declared racist by the UN."

Tell me DP, do you declare that Zionism is Racism? A Yes or No will suffice.

 
At 3:49 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger DesertPeace said...

yes

 
At 3:53 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Sorry, I missed out something in my post sykadilya:

Those leaflets are an example of a policy where the IDF drops leaflets prior to operations. It is not really news.

IsraPundit gave the Summer Rains leaflets a passing thought though.

I am sure you are capable of doing the research... I am not so sure that you are capable of processing the information though.

 
At 4:00 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Thanks for answering DP.

How is Zionism Racism then DP?

 
At 4:02 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger DesertPeace said...

Here's how...

Definition of racism

*

The ICERD (International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination) defines racism as follows:
“Any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment, or exercise, on equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural, or any other field of public life.”
*

The International Council on Human Rights Policy (IHCRP) argues:
“racism has not disappeared… we confront forms of racism that are covert or more complex or are linked to wider issues, such as changes in the nature of the state, gender discrimination, or marginalisation due to developments in the global economy.”

 
At 4:06 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Given the fact that Arab Israelis have full citizenship rights, Zionism is NOT racism. It would only be racism if the METHOD of obtaining a Jewish state would be to ensure non-Jews are treated as second class citizens, just like Jews are treated like second class citizens in most Islamic nations.

 
At 4:10 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger DesertPeace said...

By your logic Missy... it's then ok for me to hate blacks from Africa as long as i dont discriminate against any that have the same citizenship as me.
Yes, Israeli Arabs have Israeli citizenship and are treated worse than second class citizens in most other countries.
They are treated no differently than Palestinians who do not have the 'blue identity card'.

 
At 4:13 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

DesertPeace:

Your comment saddens me. It saddens me, because you are what is weakening Israel from within. Let me quote what you wrote.

I am proven right by the dropping of every Israeli bomb, by the fireing of every Israeli gun, by the MURDER of every inocent Palestinian.

You sicken me. In fact, Israel is acting in SELF DEFENSE when they fire guns and drop bombs. They aim for terrorists, and take SUPREME CARE to avoid civilian deaths.

If you had your way, terrorists would have free reign to murder as many Israelis as possible, and Israel would sit back and take it. If a nation does not take action to defend itself, it ceases to be a viable nation. So you clearly do not believe in Israel's right to exist.

Just sickening, that you somehow think you are acting in a way conducive to the peace process, when it is clear you are doing anything but that.

 
At 4:15 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

DesertPeace:

Um...no.

Zionism as a MOVEMENT is not racism, because it does not involve treating nonJews as second class citizens.

In contrast, there may be particular Zionist INDIVIDUALS who are racist. That is quite separate and distinct from whether "zionism is racism."

 
At 4:16 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger DesertPeace said...

Missy, you have once again proven to me that it is a waste of time trying to discuss anything with you. i was hoping your attitudes nd mnd changed a bit over the past few days, but you have gotten worse.
Consider this my last comment to you on any subject.
Life is too short and precious to waste it on folks like you.

 
At 4:19 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

sykadilya:

Children do not come up with ideas out of the sky, and so I would assume that parents encourage children to stone throw.

That doesn't mean Israel as a nation or as a culture encourages the activity, and it doesn't mean it isn't punished.

I have to repeat myself here. This contrasts with the Palestinian way, where stone throwing children are elevated to the highest levels.

 
At 4:20 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

DesertPeace:

Once again, you react like a child when confronted with cold hard truths, and throw a tantrum.

 
At 4:33 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

DP, you defined racism, but you did not answer the question.

Please explain exactly why you think Zionism is Racism.

 
At 4:35 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Miss R: "If you had your way, terrorists would have free reign to murder as many Israelis as possible, and Israel would sit back and take it. If a nation does not take action to defend itself, it ceases to be a viable nation. So you clearly do not believe in Israel's right to exist."

Well said.

 
At 4:38 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Heya Miss R. There is no point arguing with DP, but it is useful to see how people like him think. As he said: "Life is too short and precious to waste it on folks like... DP"! :)

 
At 4:40 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Steven,

Very true.

I will say, for the record, that I admit things when I have facts pointed at me. For instance, I conceded points to Tsedek.

In contrast, DP believes in screaming and yelling rather than citing facts, and then hurling insults when proven wrong.

 
At 4:41 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger DesertPeace said...

Steven, I was about to answer your question until I saw your last comment to Missy..
You have now joined your 'collegue in hate and ignorance' as those that I no longer respond to in any way.
As Osaid says,"Have a nice day"!

 
At 4:47 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

:) I feel privilaged.

Have a nice day to you too.

 
At 4:57 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

DP, you are a man obsessed with finding racism when there is none

Racism has even become entertainment for you - your icon is proof of your mockery of racism.

Zionism is a movement which started when the Jewish people were expelled from Israel thousands of years ago.* Modern Zionism holds the political ideal that the Jewish people have a right to return to Israel in a secure land of their own. Zionists span religions and races and zionism does not specify that any race is inferior to any other. The declaration that Zionism is Racism was indeed passed in the United Nations. This should be another warning to everyone who has faith in the UN.

*****

*Jewish people were expelled from Israel by the Romans because Judaism conflicted with Roman culture and threatened the Roman empire. Learn more.

 
At 5:12 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 5:14 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Anti-Zionism is racism.

--- Edited Quote ---

Anti-Zionism earns its racist character from denying the Jewish people what it grants to other collectives (e.g. Spanish, Palestinians), namely, the right to nationhood and self-determination.

Are Jews a nation? A collective is entitled to nationhood when its members identify with a common history and wish to share a common destiny. Palestinians have earned nationhood status by virtue of thinking like a nation, not by residing where their ancestors did (many of them are only three or four generations in Palestine). Jews, likewise, are bonded by nationhood (i.e., common history and destiny) more than they are bonded by religion.

The appeal to Jewish nationhood is necessary when we consider Israel’s insistence on remaining a “Jewish state.” By “Jewish state” Israelis mean, of course, “national Jewish state,” not “religious Jewish state” — theocratic states (like Pakistan and Iran) are incompatible with modern standards of democracy and pluralism. Anti-Zionist racists use this anti-theocracy argument repeatedly to delegitimize Israel, and I have found our students unable to defend their position with conventional ideology that views Jewishness as a religion.

Jewishness is more than just a religion. It is an intricate and intertwined mixture of ancestry, religion, history, country, culture, tradition, attitude, nationhood and ethnicity, and we need not apologize for not fitting neatly into the standard molds of textbook taxonomies — we did not choose our turbulent history.

As a form of racism, anti-Zionism is worse than anti-Semitism. It targets the most vulnerable part of the Jewish people, namely, the people of Israel, who rely on the sovereignty of their state for physical safety, national identity and personal dignity. To put it more bluntly, anti-Zionism condemns 5 million human beings, mostly refugees or children of refugees, to eternal statelessness, traumatized by historical images of persecution and genocide.

 
At 5:15 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

By the way, those posts are not for you DP, but for other readers. You need not reply. :)

 
At 5:17 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

VERY WELL SAID. Steven, if you can post that on Culture For All, I would be much appreciative! (btw, I have a new post on there as well) :-)

 
At 5:20 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Will do. :)

 
At 8:26 PM, July 08, 2006, Anonymous The Raccoon said...

DP:
/Yes, Israeli Arabs have Israeli citizenship and are treated worse than second class citizens in most other countries.
They are treated no differently than Palestinians who do not have the 'blue identity card'. /

This is utter and complete nonsense and you know it. Hence I must conlude that you are telling blatant lies on purpose. This is unfortunate and makes communication between us all but impossible.

Sykadilya -

I have served in Jericho. Your presumptions are telling of your mindset. It is, too, unfortunate.

*shrug*


Humans are hopeless.

 
At 11:12 PM, July 08, 2006, Anonymous sarit safadi said...

There is a great deal of discussion going on here, but I feel compelled to comment on DP's statement:

"it's then ok for me to hate blacks from Africa as long as i dont discriminate against any that have the same citizenship as me."

In a word, Yes. That is exactly what a democracy allows--freedom of thought. You may hate whoever you like as long as you don't deprive that person of his or her civil rights and that the civil rights of all citizens are protected. So your statement is somewhat ridiculous---you can't control people's thoughts or legislate their sentiments.

No nation has a perfect civil rights record--not Israel, not the US, not Great Britain, BUT they are compelled to keep trying to improve as that is what a constitutional democracy works towards. I have yet to meet anyone in my neighborhood who "hates" Arabs although there is a greater degree of suspicion since the Second Intifada and it's concomitant suicide bombings started....which is a natural reaction, I believe. When both sides finally reach peace, I think a great deal of suspicion and fear will start to abate.

 
At 11:25 PM, July 08, 2006, Blogger DesertPeace said...

Sarit, I prefer not to hate anyone... within my borders or outside them... it leads nowhere.
I understand your feelings of suspician, this is natural considering the circumstances.I see it as well in my community, it's not pleasant, but it is unfortunately reality at the present moment.

 
At 1:34 AM, July 09, 2006, Blogger thecutter said...

From a recent article by Bob Finch, "The Jews-Only State"

One of the main lies perpetrated by the Jews-only state is that all israelis, whether Jews or not, are equal. Despite the fact that there are many Palestinians with Israeli citizenship, the Zionist state is a Jews-only state because only Jews have full rights.

Firstly, Palestinian Israelis have only limited political rights in comparison to jews. They have the right to vote in Zionist elections, form political parties, hold political meetings, contest elections for seats in the Knesset, and even become members of the Jewish parliament. But, they are not allowed to form political parties which advocate a multi-cultural
state in which Palestinians and Jews share power, "[I]n this "outpost of
democracy," no party that opposes the existence of the Jewish state is
permitted to take part in elections. It is as if the United States were to declare itself a Christian state, define "Christian" not by religious belief but by descent, and then pass a "gag law" prohibiting public
discussion of the issue." (Noel Ignatiev ‘Toward a Single State Solution: Zionism, Anti-Semitism and the People of Palestine’ counterpunch
http://www.counterpunch.org/ignatiev06172004.html 17.06.2004); "The Israeli Supreme Court has even ruled that nobody can run for membership in the Knesset (parliament) who challenges the idea that Israel is a Jewish state or who challenges the principle of preserving a Jewish majority."
(1989 Israeli Supreme Court ruling reported in the 1991 Israel Law Review, Vol. 25, p. 219, published by the Faculty of Law at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem ). (John Spritzler ‘Should People Opposed to Bigotry and Anti-Semitism Support Israel?’ http://newdemocracyworld.org/War/Should-People.htm February 6, 2005).

 
At 2:12 AM, July 09, 2006, Blogger Oleh Yahshan said...

Cutter,
there is nothing wrong with declaring certain asspects in regard to the kind of parties any country we might have. Just like we don't allow parties that don't think the state should be a democracy, we also don't allow those who cannot understand it is a Jewish State, and activly work to try and destroy it. By Saying it is a Jewish State does not make the non-Jews any less citizens.

Your comparison is simply wrong, Since Judaism is more than a Religion and trying to compare it as you did just shows how little you know. The correct comparison would be running a party in Britian that says it should destroy it's democracy and return to the old King Rule.

Racoon,
you beat me to what I was going to say to DP about the Israeli Arabs. so all I can say is Well said.
What were you doing in Jericho (you can email me Via my site - I am interested in hearing more)

 
At 2:21 AM, July 09, 2006, Blogger thecutter said...

oleh, if the State is Jewish, that means that the privileges reserved for Jews and the descrimination are institutional. How is it that 20% of the citizens, if they wish to have political power, must accept that they will remain second class citizens? I find it strange that you don't see this contradiction. Obviously, Israel is far from democratic, and the "rights" that people here are trying to claim exist in equal measure for the Palestinians who are citizens of Israel are a lie.

i also find it so interesting that most of you complain that Hamas is a religious party, and that it is in power. You seem to feel that there is nothing even remotely wrong with a Jewish State, but a Muslim one is unacceptable. More double standards.

 
At 2:27 AM, July 09, 2006, Blogger Red Tulips said...

Cutter:

The 20% of Arab Israelis are NOT SECOND CLASS CITIZENS. They have 100% rights with Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Israelis

You are simply WRONG in your statement. Flat out, unequivocably WRONG.

The problem with Hamas is not that it is a religious party, but that it is a terrorist and Islamist party, aimed at the destruction of Israel. It also uses Islam to justify all kinds of discrimination against non-Muslims and women.

You have blinders on, and it's disgusting.

Israel is not racist and zionism is not racism, but rather the anti-zionists are the biggest racists out there.

 
At 3:53 AM, July 09, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

Cutter, Steven and DesertPeace..
Take it a little easy.

Oleh : I lived meters away from Romeida.

Raccoon :
I dont know wts wrong with you man. You look very depressed recently, right? You also havent responded to my last question to you asking clarification about what you meant.

I dont know guys but I feel you get disappointed and frustrated easily. This shouldnt be the way since all of us all adults and we should manage to work the situation in a civilized way.

Mrs Safadi : I really admire your positions and notes.

good day all. I will be in Hebron next week where I will try to ask more friends of mine to join the discussions to see wht others might want to add. I would want not to discuss the history coz its a shameful and depressing one for all of us. Where are in 2006 and all why we are here is to try to find intersection points where we can agree upon.

Miss R :
Reading your notes and your comments again makes me feel that you are little loaded. Calm down a little. We are all people here and STOP thinking you have the right information and right stories for history.

good day all.
My next post will be about a pure palestinian matter but its surely related to Israel. Everyone is welcomed to add any notes. Lets not scatter the discussions and try to be commenting on ONE topic at one time, all of us.

Steven: I am still working on the 5 points. I just want to have more insight and time looking here to get to know the situation better.

good day all, and PLZ try to be more positive.

 
At 4:03 AM, July 09, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

Sykedilya

Hello and welcome to my blog.
I am going through the links you provided, they seem interesting

nice day

 
At 4:27 AM, July 09, 2006, Anonymous The Raccoon said...

Osaid - I am not depressed, just despairing. I have been trying to have dialogues on these subjects for years now, and every time it ends the same: the person with whom I am debating starts spewing forth lies, becomes agitated and locks up in an illogical cyclical thinking. There are two versions of the lies - either Palestinian/Mulsim propaganda and historic revisionism, both of the vilest sort; or self-taught lies mixed with the aforementioned propaganda. After one such discussion ended with a Palestinian youth screaming at me, red in the face, fists clenched, I decided that maybe such discussions in real life might be detrimental to one's health.

BTW, check up on a psychological phenomenon known as "cognitive dissonance". Very interesting, and explains many of the highly negative reactions and people being blind to facts and words.

About what I perceive as a dichtomy of thought in you: normally you're very reasonable and make an appearence of someone who really wants to end the violence and live in peace with the Jews.
And then you put forth some conspiracy theory, or an obvious untruth (I respect your intelligence enough to presume that you are not discussing subjects you're ignorant of), or a view of Jews/Israel that is twisted and malicious.

The discrepancy between these times is somewhat puzzling for me.

 
At 4:30 AM, July 09, 2006, Anonymous The Raccoon said...

Oleh -

I served in DCO Jericho, in the IDF/PA joint patrol, right until the second intifada. This is one of the reasons for my despair - I have seen Jericho ruined in the span of a single day by stupid terrorists.

 
At 4:33 AM, July 09, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

DP: "it's then ok for me to hate blacks from Africa as long as i dont discriminate against any that have the same citizenship as me."

Sarit: "In a word, Yes. That is exactly what a democracy allows--freedom of thought. You may hate whoever you like as long as you don't deprive that person of his or her civil rights and that the civil rights of all citizens are protected. So your statement is somewhat ridiculous---you can't control people's thoughts or legislate their sentiments."

DP: "I prefer not to hate anyone... within my borders or outside them... it leads nowhere."

*****

I agree, however it is not a form of discrimination to hate someone - only when you take away their rights. I think this is what Sarit was saying too.

 
At 4:37 AM, July 09, 2006, Anonymous The Raccoon said...

Thecutter - I have just had a vision of the future. It happens sometimes, and this time it's about you, dear:

20 years from this day, a close female relative of yours will be gang-raped. She will then be beaten by the police and raped by them as well; and then she'll be raped in jail, too, just to make sure she doesn't reach paradise. And then she'll be publicly executed for adultery - a capital crime in the European Islamic Caliphate.

And I can see, dear, standing there and cheering along with the crowd, happy that a criminal has been brought to justice: allah uakbar! Allah uakbar! khamdu l'allah! Allah uakbar!

And a fleeting voice in your head will whisper - "kapo". But you'll drown it with screams of bloodthirsty extasy, revelling in your new religion and new Europe.

Ponder this vision, cutter, dear. That is if your cognitive dissonance will allow you to actually see this post.

 
At 4:55 AM, July 09, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Hello again Cutter. :)

*****

You say: "One of the main lies perpetrated by the Jews-only state..."

Before that first sentence is even completed there has been a huge error. There is no Jews-only state in existence on the planet.

*****

You say: "... all Israelis, whether Jews or not, are equal."

How can I prove this to be incorrect?

- I could show you that Israeli Arabs sit on the Supreme Court.
- I could show you that Israeli Arabs have their own political parties.
- I could show you that Israeli Arabs have freedom of expression.

What do you need to know in order to get past this basic libel?

Don’t get me wrong, things are not perfect, but they are pretty good and improving every day. Issues such as equal opportunities in employment are being tackled to make sure that Israeli Arabs are not discriminated against.

If you truly care about racism, would you please comment on the fact that both you and I can not become citizens of Jordan because we are Jewish? Thank you.

*****

Cutter: "Despite the fact that there are many Palestinians with Israeli citizenship..."

These are not "Palestinians" but Israeli Arabs. Prior to 1948 the term Palestinian was almost exclusively used for the Jewish residents of Israel. The easiest brain-dead proof of this is the Jewish Palestine Post newspaper - today called the Jerusalem post.

*****

Cutter: "the Zionist state is a Jews-only state because only Jews have full rights."

This statement is:

a) Designed to de-legitimise Israel
b) Factually incorrect

*****

Cutter: “Palestinian Israelis have only limited political rights in comparison to Jews. They have the right to vote in Zionist elections, form political parties, hold political meetings, contest elections for seats in the Knesset, and even become members of the Jewish parliament. But, they are not allowed to form political parties which advocate a multi-cultural state in which Palestinians and Jews share power.”

Firstly, you should know that West Palestine Arabs are not Israeli citizens in any respect; as such I will not discuss their position at the moment. Instead I will talk about the position of Israeli Arabs.

Secondly, let me correct that last line if the points stated are true, it should read:
- “Political parties, both Israeli and Arab, are not allowed to advocate the 1 state solution.”

I do not know if this is true, but I am interested. Please can you show me this law on the Knesset website? ;)

Just a quick note: Israel is a multi-cultural state with Africans, Indians, Americans, Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Bahai’s and of course Jews (to name a few) – all with full rights.

PLO controlled areas have no Jewish people. Think about it.

*****

You continue: “No party that opposes the existence of the Jewish state is permitted to take part in elections.”

What you have stated is that a party is not allowed to destroy Israel. Quite reasonable really, and this is not discrimination against non-Jews. You are a perfect example of a Jew who (if you were a citizen of Israel) would also be restricted in this way. Things are not clear cut, cutter - as such there is no restriction based on religion.

If you want to discuss the 1 state solutions I would love to.

*****

“It is as if the United States were to declare itself a Christian state, define ‘Christian’ not by religious belief but by descent, and then pass a ‘gag law’ prohibiting public discussion of the issue."

It is nothing of the sort.

Jewish people have never been defined by just religious belief - that is because the Jewish people are far more than a religion but a nation with a shared language and culture. Jerusalem is where the first and second temples stood – it is the centre of Jewish identity. Further more, Israel is the only place we have where Jewish people can defend themselves because they are a majority.

There is no “gag law” - it is simply fact that the Jewish people are a nation and have been for thousands of years. If the Jewish people do not fit into little boxes, that’s a shame for the boxes. As I quoted above:

“Jewishness is more than just a religion. It is an intricate and intertwined mixture of ancestry, religion, history, country, culture, tradition, attitude, nationhood and ethnicity, and we need not apologize for not fitting neatly into the standard moulds of textbook taxonomies — we did not choose our turbulent history.”

This is not a discussion. If you want to discuss if 1 + 1 = 2, I am sure you could think up some very philosophical ideas about what is true or not, but it is irrelevant, because 1 + 1 = 2; just as the Jewish people are a nation.

But back on topic, this example is not accurate - a far better example would be America creating a law stating that the congress can not merge America and Mexico in a dual state. That example still doesn’t even compare to the situation in Israel - but it is far better than the one you citied.

*****

Oleh said it perfectly: “there is nothing wrong with declaring certain aspects in regard to the kind of parties any country we might have. Just like we don't allow parties that don't think the state should be a democracy, we also don't allow those who cannot understand it is a Jewish State, and actively work to try and destroy it. By Saying it is a Jewish State does not make the non-Jews any less citizens.”

*****

Cutter: “if the State is Jewish, that means that the privileges reserved for Jews”

No it doesn’t. I am in a Christian country. What’s the biggie? There are also 56 Muslims states. Why are you only interested in the 1 and only Jewish microstate called Israel?

*****

Cutter: “…and the discrimination are institutional. How is it that 20% of the citizens, if they wish to have political power, must accept that they will remain second class citizens?”

Israeli Arabs are not second class citizens.

*****

Cutter: “I find it strange that you don't see this contradiction. Obviously, Israel is far from democratic, and the "rights" that people here are trying to claim exist in equal measure for the Palestinians who are citizens of Israel are a lie.”

You missed the point again. The Arabs you call “Palestinians" are not Israeli’s. Not only that, they are at war with Israel. Let me give you an example:

- You are proposing that England give Germans full citizenship rights and merge England and Germany in the middle of WW2.

Israel *still* allows Palestinians to work in Israel - in contrast many surrounding Arab countries afford the Palestinians less rights than they get in Israel.

*****

Cutter: “I also find it so interesting that most of you complain that Hamas is a religious party, and that it is in power. You seem to feel that there is nothing even remotely wrong with a Jewish State, but a Muslim one is unacceptable. More double standards.”

I am amazed at this one Cutter.

Often it is said that when Jewish people go to Israel they feel that’s all they need to do! Israel is extremely secular - further more there are no religious courts or anything of the sort.

You have clearly not been to Israel – or you have your eyes shut and your hands over your ears.

Now for your comparison to Hamas:
Hamas is one of the world’s largest terrorist groups. Please look up the Hamas charter and read it – that will give you an introduction to who Hamas are. Opposition to Hamas is not about Islam - it is due to the fact that this organisation blows up busses full of school kids.

I would expect this comparison from a Nazi website (I should know, I spend some time exploring those dark places on the net and talking to Nazi’s.)

*****

Cutter,

The problem here is that you do not know what you are talking about. Please visit Israel or learn about what Israel is before you claim it is a theocracy. Learn about what Hamas is. Would you like me to provide you with resources?

 
At 4:56 AM, July 09, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

Raccoon :
/About what I perceive as a dichtomy of thought in you: normally you're very reasonable and make an appearence of someone who really wants to end the violence and live in peace with the Jews.And then you put forth some conspiracy theory, or an obvious untruth (I respect your intelligence enough to presume that you are not discussing subjects you're ignorant of), or a view of Jews/Israel that is twisted and malicious.../

What maliciou idea that i put forward ??? Raccoon are you ok ??

 
At 4:56 AM, July 09, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Raccoon: "20 years from this day, a close female relative of yours will be gang-raped. She will then be beaten by the police and raped by them as well; and then she'll be raped in jail, too, just to make sure she doesn't reach paradise. And then she'll be publicly executed for adultery - a capital crime in the European Islamic Caliphate."

I know that description with Hamas was revolting - but that wasn't nessessary.

 
At 4:57 AM, July 09, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Typo: *description* = comparison

 
At 5:00 AM, July 09, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Another typo - This one is worse!

Quote:
*You say: "... all Israelis, whether Jews or not, are equal."

How can I prove this to be incorrect?*


LoL

The first line should have stated "not all Israelis are equael" or something along those lines... I am sure you got the drift anyway. :)

 
At 5:03 AM, July 09, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

RAccoon :
/..20 years from this day, a close female relative of yours will be gang-raped. She will then be beaten by the police and raped by them as well; and then she'll be raped in jail, too, just to make sure she doesn't reach paradise. And then she'll be publicly executed for adultery - a capital crime in the European Islamic Caliphate.../

That was stupid. The fact that you dont know how islam is, as it doesnt exist in practice now, doesnt allow you to talk this way about it.

STOP talking about religions. ALL of you.We have much to talk about other than this.
good day.

 
At 5:06 AM, July 09, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

This is my main question for you Cutter, so I want to repeat it:

Cutter: “if the State is Jewish, that means that the privileges reserved for Jews”

No it doesn’t. I am in a Christian country. What’s the biggie? There are also 56 Muslims states. Why are you only interested in the 1 and only Jewish microstate called Israel?

 
At 5:16 AM, July 09, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

This conflict is partly linked to religion, anti-Semitism, Osaid.

Even the little kids:
Even at 3 years old, at 14 years old.

You know this Osaid.

 
At 5:18 AM, July 09, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Cutter: Heros try to change the Arab culture of no responsibility.

 
At 6:10 AM, July 09, 2006, Anonymous The Raccoon said...

Osaid - you do not put forth malicious ideas... but sometimes you say things which have no grouunding in reality - and since I respect you enoough not to think you ignorant, I can but presume you buy into irrational propaganda. This clashes strongly with your habitual reasonable and rational thoughts. *shrug* Maybe you're just having bad moments or something, I don't know.

Religion, now... Islam is currently being used to justify any atrocity. Look at Iran, look at Hamas, look at Al-Quaeda, look at Saudi Arabia, look at MB. Ijtihad has been stopped for hundreds of years, and only more and more radical interpretations are accepted.

The little vision I have described... it's something that happens often in the Islamic Republic of Iran.

Hmmm. I don't know much about Iyad Jamal al-Din, but from this video he appears to be a sane and reasonable kind of guy. Wonder whether British Muslims are heeding his words?

 
At 1:14 PM, July 09, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Not at the moment... but I hope that changes. They are still protesting in the street for the right to massacre Jews... and the police still stand by and do nothing. :(

It is disconcerting.

 
At 2:51 AM, July 10, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

Steven ...
Stop viewing the situation the way you do. You are only showing one side of the story. You want evidence of israeli protests against arabs and for expelling and killing arabs ?? Being able to bring such links, Steven, does not support any of your claims.

We can find people from both sides who have hatred for the other. GENERALIZING is a serious mistake some smart person like you should not commit.

good day Steven

 
At 2:58 PM, July 10, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Heya Osaid. :)

*****

You say: "Stop viewing the situation the way you do. You are only showing one side of the story."

Osaid, you are only showing one side of the story despite what you said to me when you first created this blog. That's ok, but don't tell me that there is anything wrong for presenting this side of the story.

Further more, if you actually read my posts you will see that I have rebuked pro-Israeli comments which are not fair.

You say: "You want evidence of israeli protests against arabs and for expelling and killing arabs??"

No. I know these protests exist as you do too. What I want is evidence of Arabs protesting in support of Israel within the disputed terrortories.

You said: "Being able to bring such links, Steven, does not support any of your claims."

The links showing Palestinian telivision where a 3 year old baby is saying that Jews are pigs and monkeys definately supports what I have stated.

I note that you have no problem including links of your own and conclude that your "claims" are verified, but when I provide links they are not valid.

You said: "We can find people from both sides who have hatred for the other. GENERALIZING is a serious mistake some smart person like you should not commit."

Thank you for the compliment. I do not generalise. :)

Best wishes Osaid.

ps. Please can you answer some of my posts? The main one is this one:

*****

Osaid, these links are factual. Please address the points that are made on that website - if you do not agree with something on that website please show me evidence which contradicts it.

If it checks out I will learn something; then I will email Francisco and tell him to correct his article. :)

Notice how Fransisco backs up everything he says with references to make it easy for you to check what he is saying and see his sources.

*****

O: "Arabs were acting violently against jews in the early 1900's because jews were taking their land, and you know that."

No, I don't know that.

Did you read page 3 completely?

*****

O: "You see, Steven, that even at the worst time in our history there were Palestinians who believed in peace and nonviolence and the rights of the original jewish people to live in Palestine."

I do not generalise about "all" of any people. I am, however, aware what a minority is. Oscar Schindler was a minority. These Arabs were a minority. We do not judge the Nazis by the actions of Oscar Schindler. Comprende?

 
At 4:06 PM, July 10, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Off Topic:

For Osaid,
I left you a comment at the end of this post.

 
At 10:11 PM, February 19, 2017, Blogger Halı Yıkama said...

Halı Yıkama
Halı Yıkama Fiyatları

 

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