Monday, June 26, 2006

Israeli soldier Kidnapped ... Gaza


/...
Aljazeera ( http://english.aljazeera.net ) :
A 19-year-old soldier, who also holds French nationality, went missing when the Popular Resistance Committees attacked an army post on the Gaza Strip border at dawn on Sunday.
...
him Ramon, the Israeli justice minister, told Israel Rad io: "We hold Abu Mazen [Abbas] responsible. He holds ultimate responsibility for what goes on."
Two other Israeli servicemen and two Palestinian fighters also died in the attack.

...

( Palestinian Women in Gaza asking for the Release of their Children )


"President Mahmud Abbas ordered prime minister Ismail Haniya, interior minister Said Siam and security service commanders to immediately launch a serious search today to release the soldier"

...
Israeli officials have hinted that, should the deadline for Shalit's release go unmet, there could be an aerial attack on Gaza against the civilian infrastructure and Hamas leaders including Ismail Haniya, the Palestinian prime ministe
... /

( Kidnapped Israeli Soldier after the attck )


The Palestinian millitants who carried out this "operation" surely have their motives : they want to show Israel that killing civilian Palestinians cannot be left without a "response", and show Israel that the can "fight back".

The fact that this attck targeted Israeli military posts is problematic. Israel cannot blame these militants anymore that they are targeting civilians , and the militants say that they are 'fighting back' and 'resisting' the occupation and the killing of civilians.

I am sure there is much to argue here, but lets just skip all these discussions and get to the current facts : an Israeli soldier is kidnapped and Israel is giving the " Palestinians " 48 hours to release him.

I do believe that Israel is ready to invade the whole Gaza to release its soldier, and I am sure that many Palestinians are willing to fight this invasion. Whether Israel will airstrike Gaza or just send its tanks is the same : there is a great possibility that tens ( if not hundreds ) of civilian Palestinians will be killed.

Or maybe Israel should make a deal with the kidnappers and let free " all the women and all prisoners under age 18" ?? Is Israel ready to negotiate with " terrorists " ?? Will the Palestinian militant groups be ready to "give up" the kidnapped soldier and release him for no return ?

President Abbas is not in a good position to take any decision or to be blamed for anything. Although he was the first to be blamed for all this, I do not think that President Abbas can do much in this situation especially after being weakened by the continuous Israeli attacks on Palestinian targets.

Here in Palestine no one is in charge of anything. Civilians are the first to pay the price of any Israeli operation against any group. The ceasefire was the only hope for moderate and civilian Palestinians to stop the killing on both sides , but it looks like that neither Israel nor the armed Palestinian groups are interested in calming down.

What is very strange in such horrible moments is the absence of the American, Russian and European roles, who were once "committed to help Palestinians and Israelis to establish peace "!

Very ironic and very sad.

What shoud be done now ? Israel should stop all its military preparations and operations and give President Abbas time to end this situation. Israel should also start considering searching for the right Palestinian partner and show Palestinians WILLINGNESS to achieve peace. President Abbas , on the other hand, should do his best to convince the kidnappers to release the Israeli soldier immediately.

What is needed from the Palestinians at the moment ? and what is needed from Israel ?? A question everyone should try to find an answer for.



66 Comments:

At 2:43 AM, June 27, 2006, Anonymous The Raccoon said...

Interestingly enough, this terrorist attack cannot be a response to anything that happened in the past few months. This probably took months to organize and coordinate, the 300-meters-long tunnel probably took a long, long time to excavate... so they should stop bullshiting.

It is the position of Israel not to negotiate with terrorists, and for a very good reason - give them a finger and they'll want the hand. Any backing down on the side of Israel is seen as weakness; if Israel negotiates now and the terrorists get ANYTHING, they will do all in their power to kidnap soldiers and citizens. Not to mention that the poor child is probably dead by now - and if he isn't, he's probably wishing he was.

If he is not returned by the deadline, Israel will HAVE to act. It is the lesser of possible evils here. Same as Hannibal Procedure, as we had in Lebanon - if you see terrorists kidnapping a soldier or a civilian, do not hesitate to shoot in fear of harming the soldier or civilian. Pity Israel is left with such evil choices.

Israel has been searching for the right Palestinian partner for far too long, paying a very dear price in blood throughout the useless Oslo years. The Israeli public has reached the conclusion that there is nobody to talk to among the Palestinians - nobody who is serious about not trying to destroy Israel and nobody who can actually do anything constructive.

These terrorist fools have doomed the Palestinian people. If I was a Palestinian, I would probably leave and then do anything in my power to stop these evil creatures from wrecking more ruin.

And now Fatah's "armed wing" - as if Fatah has an "unarmed wing" - announced that it has chemical and biological weapons. I could not imagine a move better designed to harm the Palestinians. If they have MWDs, Israel will have to act - airstrikes, land invasions, you name it. If they will actually USE them, Israelis will demand of their government to obliterate PA. And the government will have no choice but to comply. Seriously. Nothing will be left of PA in a matter of days - and I am talking total annihilation here, all of the current residents of PA turned refugees, and no housde left intact in the territories. And if they don't have WMDs, they have just made life for Palestinians that much more difficult - now Israel has no choice but to check into the matter, which means more stringent checkpoints, more arrests, more pressure.

How long will these morons dig their own graves - and drag their fellow Palestinians down with them?

 
At 3:05 AM, June 27, 2006, Blogger Tsedek said...

I agree with you, Raccoon. 100%.

Only I don't think it is that easy for regular Palestinians to stand up to these terrorists ("freedomfighters" as some might call them, although the're the ones that locked the Palestinian people behind a wall and inside Gaza).

I feel terribly sorry for them. But, is there one Palestinian that can relate to the suffering Israeli's went and go through? I just can't find anybody that seems to think we're just people too with feelings that can be hurt - and having victims....

The tone of this posting is also very much from a standpoint of "we're victims of Israel" without seeing the nuance that there are several more factors that contribute to the Palestinians bad fate.

Tse.

 
At 9:46 AM, June 27, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

I don't know what to say about this and I can not decide what the best course of action is... and that makes me feel guilty.

People have been talking about this for a long while now - if Israel decides to negotiate or not to negotiate I will neither support nor oppose the action.

 
At 9:51 AM, June 27, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

I agree with everything you said Raccoon... I just do not like the reality of war that is all.

I hate to know that this kid, who has the same name as one of my own cousins in Israel - is already a corpse.


Hope you are well Osaid.
Best wishes.

 
At 3:24 PM, June 27, 2006, Blogger Oleh Yahshan said...

osaid,
Everyone knows that Israel will respond to an attack/kidnapping like the one that took place this week. And it will most likely do so by entering Gaza - as you very well pointed out.

What I don't get is this - If everyone knows this, and know that Palestinians are going to get killed in such operation - Why do it in the first place?? Do your Heros (the people who led this attack - Hamas And Co.) Not care about The lives of the people in Gaza?? I don't get it?
I will take it a step further and assume that they don't care.. Why do you support such people... the kind that put your life and other palestinians lives at risk??

We both know that Israel would not enter if it wasn't for this attack. We also know that Israel would not fire Shells and missles If it wasn't for the Kassams. So instead of stopping the firindg of Kassams They have moved them into built up areas.. usually in places where there are Children... Hmm... I am glad I didn't elect these people to be my Govt.!

 
At 8:58 PM, June 27, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Oleh, what a fantastic post. :)

Osaid, I have another link that you may find interesting on occupation.

Take care.



Steven

 
At 10:13 PM, June 27, 2006, Anonymous The Raccoon said...

excellent link, Steven. Thank you :)

 
At 11:09 PM, June 27, 2006, Blogger Oleh Yahshan said...

Thanks steven I try my best to please...

 
At 5:41 PM, June 28, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

Hello Raccoon,
I haven't heard that Fatah announced that it has biological weapons. This is nonsence.

/ ..The Israeli public has reached the conclusion that there is nobody to talk to among the Palestinians - nobody who is serious about not trying to destroy Israel and nobody who can actually do anything constructive../
The 'Israeli public' that you are talking about does NOT know anything about the life of Palestinians inside the West-Bank and Gaza. Your IDF has made it almost impossible for us to live a normal life, and this has been the trend since LONG ( since 1967 ).
Raccoon you have to understand that there are so many Palestinian civillians who care about nothing except living their life normally. The 'Israeli Public' does not know anything about the daily difficulties that we see whenever we pass the street or go back home or go to work. You cannot deny that the MAJORITY of the Israeli public are really unaware of the tragic consequences of the occupation that we see in every small detail of our life.

And Raccoon : there ARE Palestinians who do not wish to 'destroy Israel' and I know MANY of them, its just that you dont see them. How would you be able to see them when "operations" that you do( the IDF I mean ) are on a non-stop basis.

We again go back to the main problem : occupation. Stop the occupation and things will get better for everyone.

Dont start telling me that you'gave much' coz all what you have given us so far is the finger.

good day

 
At 5:47 PM, June 28, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

/..How long will these morons dig their own graves - and drag their fellow Palestinians down with them? ../

These morons ,Raccoon, are the "right Palestinian partner" that your government has been constantly dealing with ; and at the same time totally ignoring the majority of Palestinians.

Your Army is now engaged in a very SHAMEFUL operation. I am not viewing it as an "operation to liberate a kidnapped soldier" , as much as I see it as an operation targeting few tens ( at the most few hundreds ) of "morons" in a refugee camp with few hundred of thousands of civillians.

DONT tell me that Israel does not negotiate with terrorists, coz simply it has been CONSTANTLY doing so !
good day.

 
At 6:13 PM, June 28, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

Hello Oleh
and welcome to my blog,

Why do you think those militants kidnapped that soldier ?? I will give you few reasons why they did so ( without pointing out my own point of view about it )
a. because Israel is occupying the West Bank ( lets not argue about Gaza being occupied or not)
b. because Isreal has been constantly targeting any movement that may bring palestinians little closer to gaining their independence.
c. because israel has been targeting some of these militants who believe that fighting isreal is the right way to get occupation out.
d. because during all these operations in "c" , hundreds of palestinian civillians were killed.
e. because they are sick of isreal kidnapping their children, parents, sons and daughters and sending them to prison even without courts ( That 6 month period that can be renewed )
f. because occupation is not allowing them to live their lives normally.
g. because they think that occupation is taking off their freedom.
f. because of reason 'a', again.


Oleh..
It is not true that the majority of Palestinians want to destroy Israel.People get so mad when they see on TV or infront of their eyes civillians being shot dead by israeli 'blind fire' that is taking their beloved. They get so angry when they see their children in prison without anyhope of being released just because they " oppose the Israeli occupation". It's the same thing that happens when a palestinian blows up a bus inside Israel: people get very mad and want the IDF to invade the west bank and gaza to destroy the 'roots of terror' !

I don't believ that we are close from any peaceful situiation as long as the Israeli government is dealing with these 'morons' that Raccoon talked about and ignoring the majority of the palestinians.

Oleh I am not supporting those who go and blow up buses, neither do I feel satidfied when i hear that Palestinians are targeting Israelis. But you have to know that the situation inside the West bank is so loaded and full of angor and dispair that I hold your government the responsibility for.

I hope things will go for the better and I hope that the voice of reason will get louder and louder inside palestine and inside israel too.
good day

Note : do you think that the IDF will be able to release the kidnapped ? How many 'morons' will you be able to take , Raccoon, and how many civillians will get killed ??

The Israeli Government , at the end, negotiating and even FULLY ENGAGING with these morons, conscioussly or uncounscioussly !!

 
At 6:24 PM, June 28, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

Hello Steven
Welcome back !

The link you provided "http://www.aijac.org.au/review/2002/278/occup278.html

Haaa !!! I believe that we should be so thankfull to occupation ! It has done us much !!


/..No less remarkable were advances in the Palestinians’ standard of living. By 1986, 92.8 percent of the population in the West Bank and Gaza had electricity around the clock, as compared to 20.5 percent in 1967; 85 percent had running water in dwellings, as compared to 16 percent in 1967; 83.5 percent had electric or gas ranges for cooking, as compared to 4 percent in 1967; and so on../

Please keep your occupation another 30 years coz then we will have the same standards of living the Americans or Europeans have !

Steven !! Come on man !!!
The black people of south africa should start building monuments of the white racist minority that governed South Africa because they actually improved the south african economy ..didnt they ?
Bush should also keep Saddam's statue coz he was able to control all these ethnic minorities in one system...

It was an interesting link, though !

 
At 6:57 PM, June 28, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

You are right Osaid.

Israel has negotiated with terrorists before, and even released prisoners. Sharon for example released prisoners for the body of a fallen soldier, let alone a live soldier.

This uncertain policy is confusing. I personally, grudgingly, do not think we should negotiate with terrorists. That is simply so that these thugs know that kidnapping is not an option. I think that grudgingly because I feel sick that I am condemning Gilad to death. The harder part of me says that this is a consequence of war, and naturally it is better that this has happened to a soldier than a civilian (two of whom were almost kidnapped in the last month).

I am not sure about Fatah having chemical weapons, however it is best not to dismiss the idea too quickly - they do, for example, have mobile rocket stations, they are not a bunch of stone throwing kids. I will try and find an article on this for you.

Now I am going to rant about the Israeli government:

The Israeli Government is acting against the wishes of the Israeli people - take disengagement for an example. Disengagement does not bring peace however Israel is determined to move back to its pre 1967 borders even when it has complete rights to the land.

***** Quote…
Following another surprising Israeli victory in the 1967 war, Israel ended up controlling the Sinai, the Golan Heights, the Gaza Strip, and the West Bank. In November of that year, the UN Security Council passed UN Resolution 242 which called for

"Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict."

This was simply outrageous because earlier that year - despite being victorious after yet another genocidal provocation - Israeli prime minister Levi Eshkol had immediately offered Israel's Arab enemies to take back these territories on condition that they promise never to attack Israel again. The Arabs refused.

You read correctly: that's all the Israelis were asking, and nothing like this -- not even remotely like it -- has ever happened in the history of warfare. Never before has a victorious state, after defending itself against an attack, and winning territory, offered to give it back in exchange for a promise of peace. And that's without mentioning that the attack was an attempted genocide.

But the Arabs refused!

Given this, how could the UN Security Council now demand that Israel return these territories? That was simply absurd, not to mention immoral. The US could have used its veto power in the Security Council to stop this resolution, but didn't.

***** End Quote *****


This should explain my above statement. Israel has every right to the land. I would also like to give you this curious fact:

***** Quote…
But the PLO changed the charter merely to add the West Bank and Gaza. And this was the most embarrassing thing possible, see, because in the 1964 (and founding) Charter, the PLO had gone quite out of its way to explain, in a special article, that the West Bank and Gaza were not part of ‘Palestine’ (see above). So why not keep the slightly smaller definition of ‘Palestine’ of 1964? This one avoided a ridiculous spectacle and a major embarrassment, and moreover did not require the political absurdity of the PLO’s pretending to oppose Western colonialists while adopting the Western colonialist definition of the PLO’s supposed ancestral homeland! And yet, no: the PLO took the extraordinary step of re-writing its charter, in 1968, in order to chose the ridiculous spectacle, the major embarrassment, the political absurdity, and... the weakest legal case.

Is there any logic to the PLO’s decisions? There is.

To discover this PLO logic the trick is to notice, glinting like a needle in the haystack of tangled and nested absurdity, the following consistency:

1) In 1964, the PLO’s definition of ‘Palestine’ corresponded, exactly, to the borders of the state of Israel.

2) In 1968, the PLO’s definition of ‘Palestine’ corresponded, exactly, to the borders of the state of Israel.

The only difference is that in those two dates the borders of Israel were not the same: in 1964 Israel did not control the West Bank and Gaza, and in 1968 it did. What happened between 1964 and 1968? The Six Day War of 1967, in this conflict, the Jordanians, who had been illegally squatting on the West Bank since the war of 1948, and the Egyptians, who had been doing the same on the Gaza strip, were kicked out of these territories when the Israelis defeated another proud attempt by the Arabs to exterminate the Israeli Jews.

Source: http://www.hirhome.com/israel/pal_mov2.htm

***** End Quote *****


So my first point stands, Israel has a right to these lands; and that article on “occupation” also stands. Even to this day, according to both the PA and Hamas, Palestine includes all of Israel and “Palestine must be liberated” means that “Israel must be destroyed”.

Even so, I still, personally, support the creation of a *peaceful* second “Palestine-Arab” state because that is simply reality and we have to bare in mind the facts on the ground. This has to be created in peace though, not under rocket fire. Until there is peace I do not support withdrawal.

Regardless of the evident facts, Israel is moving out of areas which belong legitimately to Israel and at the detriment of national security. Disengagement before peace is not a good course of action - assurance of peace must come first - and that is all Israel wanted right after the end of the 1967 war. This is all the Israeli people still wants.

While I am on a roll criticising Israel, it would be heartless not to mention the government’s policies with regards to rocket attacks on its civilians. It is quite ludicrous that Israel feels morally bound not to respond to every rocket attack on its civilians. Some areas of Israel are repeatedly attacked and yet Israel does not respond. We are in a war and the will and capability of the enemy to kill us must be eliminated. At the least, Israel should say quite simply that for every rocket that falls on an Israel, they will fire two rockets at the Palestine Arabs. This should continue until there are no more rockets being fired at Israel:

1) Because Israel the Palestine Arabs have chosen to fight their corrupt terrorist leaders and end the rockets attacks on Israel… or

2) Because Israel has destroyed the ability of the Palestine Arabs to attack Israeli civilians.

It may sound harsh, but what we are doing at the moment is not getting us anywhere.

I could go on, but I won’t at the moment.

 
At 7:18 PM, June 28, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Heya Osaid. I didn't catch your most recent post.

"The black people of south africa should start building monuments of the white racist minority that governed South Africa because they actually improved the south african economy ..didnt they ?"

I notice that you compared Apartheid to Israel when:

Apartheid is a way of seperating racial groups (apart) and granting them different rights based on their race. Apartheid was used to turn non-Whites into second class citizens in their own country.

Meanwhile Palestinians are not Israeli civilians atall, Israel has no obligation to give Palestinians the same rights as Israeli civilians (Jewish, and Muslim alike). If I go to America I am not an American citizen.

Anyway, I thought you did not believe that rubbish about Apartheid Osaid?

Perhpas this barrage of pro-Israeli talkers is pushing you away rather than building bridges?

I have another good article on "occupation".

 
At 7:37 PM, June 28, 2006, Blogger DesertPeace said...

Sallam Alekum Osaid... I enjoyed looking at your posts. I think you might find my blog interesting as well... please feel free to visit.

 
At 7:44 PM, June 28, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

Steven :

Stop talking about 'rocket attacks ' ! you make things look as if we own rockets !! lol !!

Regardless, the shit qassam rockets are only 2 years old..what were your government taking as an excuse before that ??
Suicide bombings ? this is another 6 years old ( or so ) , wt was your govt taking as an excuse before ???
Arab contries are waiting to attack Israel and kill all jews !!!
lol

Stop looking at things the way you are doing and look at the bigger picture :
Isreal has been occupying West bank since 1967. It has killed tens of thousands and relatively more than 20 % of all palestinians were imprisoned someday.
Israel has carried out tens of operations , all of which resulted in more than 60% of their casualties being civilians.

I do not want to give you links to palestinian websites or articles that will tell you the opposite, totally opposite ,story about Isreal and Palestine.

Look at the bigger picture Steven.

I am avoiding attcking or criticizing anyside in this struggle coz we and you have fatal mistakes ??? right or wong ???

Anyway...
Who will take the responsibility of the civillians who will be killed in gaza's current operation ( we wish not ) ?? The moron's racoon talked about or the SYSTEM in Israel ( your well articulated government ? ) ??

Raccoon ???

Steve am doing fine. The peple of west bank are realizing that the Israeli government is ready to abolish them all if they keep doing extra problems so they keep silent waiting for more reasonable ways to talk with Israel.
And note : they do not want to kill all jews.
good day

 
At 7:49 PM, June 28, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Cool icon DP.

I have qanother good article on resolution 242 which I just recieved from Myths and Facts:

[link]

“This is the first war in history which has ended with the victors suing for peace and the vanquished calling for unconditional surrender.”
—Abba Eban

 
At 8:20 PM, June 28, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Osaid:

"Stop talking about 'rocket attacks ' ! you make things look as if we own rockets !! lol !!"

Er, so what are the rockets being fired at Israeli homes then?


"Regardless, the shit qassam rockets are only 2 years old..what were your government taking as an excuse before that ??"

Ooops, you just said there were rockets. They may not be as good as ours, but they are still rockets and they still maim and they are still shot at Israeli homes with the intent of killing civilians.


"Suicide bombings ? this is another 6 years old ( or so )"

Suicide bombings are still an important issue - moreso than rocket attacks. Just because the society you live in has glorified suicide bombing for over 6 years does not make it less valid.


"wt was your govt taking as an excuse before ???
Arab contries are waiting to attack Israel and kill all jews !!!
lol"

LoL? You are in a funney mood today. I suppose the fact that Israel has been attacked atleast 5 times with the intent of destroying her means nothing? This is not an Israeli Palestinian conflict but is still an Arab Israeli conflict.


"Stop looking at things the way you are doing and look at the bigger picture"

Are you serious? I am looking at the big picture.


"I am avoiding attcking or criticizing anyside in this struggle coz we and you have fatal mistakes ??? right or wong ???"

Right, but you are closing your mind. If you read the posts on this thread you can see that I have backed up my statements.


"Steve am doing fine."

:)


"The peple of west bank are realizing that the Israeli government is ready to abolish them all if they keep doing extra problems so they keep silent waiting for more reasonable ways to talk with Israel."

If only they didn't choose the "silent waiting" method but the stop causeing "problems" policy.

If you felt my 5.1 points(!) on the previous thread were reasonable, then the Palestinians have to a) recognise Israel and b) stop terrorism.


*****

I would like to reproduce this post because I feel it is a very good description of the conflict:

"Palestinians think they are the oppressed and occupied nation and they have the right to defend."

When infact:
- they are not a nation yet and never have been.
- Israel supports the creation of a peaeful Palestinian state and have done so since the 1947 partition plan.
- Firing 10's of rocket into Israeli housing estates every single day is not defence.
- Blowing up civilans, even school kids on busses, is not defence.

However you are right, Palestinians do mostly see it this way.

 
At 8:22 PM, June 28, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Typo: causeing = causing.

 
At 8:30 PM, June 28, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

"there ARE Palestinians who do not wish to 'destroy Israel' and I know MANY of them, its just that you dont see them."

I know they exist, but where are they?

Here is one of them:
http://www.israel-wat.com/p1_eng12.jpg

My point?

It is dangerous to your health to make a protest supporting Israels right to exist in areas under the gang control of Hamas or the PA.

 
At 8:49 PM, June 28, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Osaid: I want to make something clear.

Israel shoots at people shooting at us. They are attacking our civilians, we are destroying their capability to massacre us by targetting their launch sites or attcking people on route to attack us. When we fire apon the people attacking us, civilians can be harmed.

To minimise this threat Israel invests a lot of money in reducing the threat to "Palestinian" civilians and opt for precision weapons.

It is very simple. Help change the Palestinian society and get them to stop killing us and Israel will have no "excuse" or as I prefer "ligitimate reason" to shoot back.

 
At 9:05 PM, June 28, 2006, Anonymous The Raccoon said...

Hey Osaid! You ok, bro? You've been offline for a while now. Lots of work?

About Fatah WMDs: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3267293,00.html

And dude... most of the Israelis do understand the conditions the Palestinians live under, since practically every Israeli over 18 has served in the army. I will explain the Israeli public's thoughts about it below at the best of my Raccoonish ability.

I myself served in Jericho after we withdrew from Lebanon - and let me tell you, it was a place I wouldn't mind living in myself, sans the heat and the terrorist gangs (which were few in Jericho back then). It WAS a good place to live, mind you, before the moronic PA leadershit turned it on its head, destroying everything the Palestinians and Israelis built there during the Hudna (even if it was a false peace. Imagine what would happen if the peace was real!).

I am still baffled about why the citizens of Jericho allowed the terrorists in.

And yes, the Israeli government are also a bunch of morons. The Israeli public wants peace, everyone is sick and tired of this fucked up situation. So everybody pressures the government to find someone in charge and talk to them, to convince the people in charge of PA that peace is better than war. The peaceful Palestinians are a disorganized and silent bunch, it seems - their voice is not heard, they are not in control, and since Palestinians voted the Hamas in, Israelis gave up on finding the peaceful Palestinians. There's just too much support for terror and too little outcry against it in the PA.
Why is it, BTW? Are you guys too terrorized by the "war on collaborators"?

Oh... and here's an example of why there is "occupation" and Israeli operations, or rather why in some places there are no such things:

My wife is from Maccabim. That's about a kilometer away from Beit Tzira - not sure if you know of it? It's a Palestinian village, under PA authority, right on the border with Israel. Until the second Intifada it was a really well-off place - people of Beit Tzira sold much of their agricultural produce in Israel, had excellent tradesmen who were very gainfully employed in Israel (a skilled bricklayer, for instance, was paid at least 40 NIS/hour back then), had good craftsmen who made stuff and sold it in Israel for good money, etc. Relationships were very good - we were just neighbors, like any neighbors.

Then the Intifada began and the borders were closed. The village lost its main source of income. Terrorists came and wanted to use it to attack Israel, but the Mukhtar chased them away and told them not to come back. Their Israeli neighbors try to help them as much as they can, be it by aid or by secretly continuing decades-old business relations. And for the people of Beit Tzira, there is no occupation; there are no IDF operations. Think about it.

Next. Mate... Palestinian Muslim terrorism was a non-stop fact since 1922. Long, long before '67 or even '48. Members of my family were being murdered by Palestinian Muslim terrorist long before '48, just for being Jewish and wanting self-determination. We both know it's not about "occupation" - the PLO was created before '67, with the goal of destroying Israel.

And how can you ignore the contribution of Israel to the Palestinians? Seriously, man... get real and accept the good along with the bad. Only through transparent realism can we find a solution.

Oh... and as for this operation... the people of Israel are sick and tired of the Israeli government not doing enough to protect them. Israelis look for their own - and they have not forgotten nor forgiven the 3 kidnapped soldiers in Lebanon (one of whom was an Arab, BTW). Leaving an Israeli in the hands of these mosters is simply unacceptable, and the government knows it. If Olmert would have gone for the insane (and probably bogus) prisoner exchange option, releasing hundreds of bloody-handed terrorists to appease their bloodthirst, the government would have fallen the next day. You see, nobody knows what to do, exactly - and people now believe that negotioations do not work (see note about Hamas above). So military force it is... even if the two kidnapped kids will die in the process, Israel MUST try to release them. And everybody knows they are probably already dead by now - but Israel has no choice in the matter.

I know that IDF is doing everything in its power to avoid civilian casualties. And I strongly suspect that the terrorists are doing everything in THEIR power to maximize civilian casualties. And I really, really hope that nobody will have to die - the only hope for that, though, is that the citizens will put enough pressure on the terrorist gangs to release the kidnapped.

BTW, Osaid, if you know of any real peaceful movement in PA that can actually do something and does not support the destruction of Israel (really doesn't support the destruction of Israel, not just pretending), please reveal it. I swear that if such people exist and nobody heard of them, I will personally make sure they are known to everyone in Israel and that pressure is applied on the Israeli government to talk to these guys and to them alone.

Peace, bro.

 
At 11:55 PM, June 28, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

Hello Steven...

That link you provided ( the picture ) :

That was one of them, ahh?

Well, you are right. This was one of the Palestinians who have much hate for Israel. And Israel is not doing much for the PUBLLIC.

If that was one of the Palestinians what do you call this :
http://img334.imageshack.us/img334/4761/pic86pm.jpg

That picture showed a GANGSTER at the best, right ? Arent those IDF soldiers ??

Anyway : I am not intending to show pictures on this blog that might add nothing but more hatred and disgust. Dont you agree with me ?

so just forget it.

Raccoon : let me see what you wrote !! It needs some time man !!

good day both.
thanks

 
At 12:28 AM, June 29, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

So far I am pleased with the way the IDF have responded.

 
At 12:36 AM, June 29, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Osaid:

I do not know the case in that picture. I do know that pictures like that are often misused... example:

http://www.hasbara.us/media.html

That Palestinian boy got so much publicity that he was given an award by Arafat. The image that circulated showing a poor Palestinin being manhandled by Israelis.

What can I say? I know that Israelis are human and not perfect. That image you sent me has little meaning. What I sent you was the picture showing what happens to an "Israeli collaborator". Judge that for yourself.

"Anyway : I am not intending to show pictures on this blog that might add nothing but more hatred and disgust. Dont you agree with me?"

If they are only being used to degrade eachother, they should not be used. If pictures help make a valid point - I do not think there is anything wrong with them.

 
At 12:52 AM, June 29, 2006, Blogger Oleh Yahshan said...

I will respond to some of this not to all since there is so much here.

Suicide has been around for longer than 6 year - can we go back to the mid 90s?? when the no, 18 buses were blowing up(1996)? Beit leed (1995)?? and a few others?? (there were so many in the past 10 years that I have a hard time remembering when each happened!!) Also lets not forget the shcool in Ma'alot (1974), and a bomb in Jerusalem (1975).
those Shitty Rockets - should we fire shitty rockets into Gaza instead of the ones that we fire now?? would that make you feel better?? should we also fire them into Ramallah, Shchem, Jenin ETC?? After all they don't do anything right??

should I remind you that The PLO was created in 1965?? BEFORE we even held the Judea Shomron or the Gaza strip??

you make it sound like there was no attempt to reach peace in the 90s. that Oslo (as much as I think it was a dumb move on our part) gave the Palestinians 97% of the west bank.
you seem to forget that in the 90s there was no wall/fence no road blocks, no IDF in any cities/towns, 10s of thousands of Palestinians earning a good living in and out of Israel. and instead of taking it you decided to start a war with us.

Today you cry that we are still occupying you!

oh ya.. I almost forgot - it has been almost a year since Israel has pulled out of GAZA. There is no occupation there. What have you achieved there in the past 10 months?? What are you waiting for??

sorry osaid I really am, but until we on the Israeli side can hear the sane side on your part - we will continue to listen to the only sounds we hear.. those of the rockets being fired at Sderot, those of your politicians telling us they want us dead, and those of bombs blowing up our buses and cafes (that thank G-D , Thanks to Amazing work of our Army - I haven't had to hear in a long while - and hope never to hear again)
If you want the other voices to be heard you will have to speak up... we are having trouble hearing you over all the loudness I described above.

have a good day,
BTW - where are you now osaid??

 
At 12:57 AM, June 29, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

The IDF are preparing an "extensive operation".

That article on chemical weapons is frightening... we are prepared to deal with this though.

 
At 1:52 AM, June 29, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Heya Raccoon, you have a HatTip over at CultureForAll. :)

 
At 4:15 AM, June 29, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Another example of Israel's efforts to avoid civilian casualties.

"IAF planes will distribute flyers on Wednesday night in the Beit Lahia and Beit Hanoun areas in the northern Gaza Strip.

The aim is to warn the residents of the areas that they are endangering their lives by being in the vicinity of Kassam launch sites."

 
At 4:21 AM, June 29, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Update:
Elder of Ziyon has a list of a couple of the women the Palestinians want to release.

 
At 5:01 AM, June 29, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

That link was from Israellycool who are keeping tack of what is going on.

 
At 5:23 AM, June 29, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Update:
Guess how the media are reporting this?

You guessed it.

 
At 7:32 AM, June 29, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Not to throw articles at you Osaid... I have another good one:

"Rocket Kills Israeli Woman. A rocket fired from the Gaza Strip hit a house in the village of Nativ Haasara, killing an Israeli woman in her 20s yesterday.

"A Palestinian militant group, the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, said the rocket attack was retaliation for the killing of a fugitive militant hours earlier in a West Bank raid by Israeli forces."(1)

To understand the above, it is necessary to translate the word "militant", which the Western press invariably uses for terrorists who kill innocent Jewish civilians. Thus translated, we learn that when the IDF kills an Al-Aqsa Martyrs terrorist, this group says it "retaliates" by killing another innocent civilian. But retaliating is what the IDF did. Al-Aqsa Martyrs was simply killing another innocent civilian.

Second, it is important to point out that Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade is part of Al-Fatah, which controls the PLO and the Palestinian Authority (PA). At the top of Al-Fatah, the PLO and the PA sits Mahmoud Abbas, and he presides over a perfectly authoritarian structure. What this means is that the above-mentioned attack by Al-Aqsa Martyrs, which is to say, by Fatah, requires authorization from Mahmoud Abbas...

 
At 7:36 AM, June 29, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

"Please keep your occupation another 30 years coz then we will have the same standards of living the Americans or Europeans have !

Steven !! Come on man !!!"

You make a good point there Osaid.

 
At 2:31 PM, June 30, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Olmert still refuses to get it

Since replacing former Ariel Sharon in office last December, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has refused to permit a large-scale IDF incursion into the Gaza Strip. The hundreds of rockets, mortars and missiles that have rendered the Western Negev's population and economy hostages of Palestinian rocket crews could not budge him from his refusal to take the war to the enemy. Indeed, for months he ignored the pleas of residents of Sderot and told the IDF to suffice with artillery fire into empty fields and aerial bombings of terrorists en route to launching rockets at Israel.

 
At 2:41 PM, June 30, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Off topic... though I suppose everything is related:

The British Record on Partition

Palestinian Arab leaders derive legitimacy from the accepted view that in 1948 their predecessors fought a National Liberation war against British-backed Jewish colonists. A 1948 Nation magazine study proves the opposite happened.

 
At 3:55 PM, June 30, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Shit me Osaid... I have to share this one with you too. Where is the international outcry?!

Saudi has built one, Egypt is next on the list:

Link

 
At 5:39 PM, June 30, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

So you believe that such walls are apartheid walls ?

 
At 7:04 PM, June 30, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Not atall.

I just find it intersting that there has been no international outcry when Egypt builds a wall.

It is inconsistant.

Do you not agree?

 
At 8:35 PM, June 30, 2006, Blogger he who is known as sefton said...

the problem with the Palestinians -

Their problem is not so much that, whatever their leadership, they never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. It goes deeper than that. Given the chance to shoot themselves in the foot, the Palestinians do so ... in a heartbeat ... cheerfully.

By the way, that observation is found in my piece, titled "garden party crashed, snide follow-up". And the text for the hyperlink is, as follows:

http://hewhoisknownassefton.blogspot.com/2006/06/garden-party-crashed-snide-follow-up.html

 
At 12:58 AM, July 01, 2006, Blogger Beaman said...

"What is very strange in such horrible moments is the absence of the American, Russian and European roles..."

I am European myself so will just refer to Europe.

I don't know what you want Europe, the EU, to do. What suggestions do you have yourself?
Israel is trying to retrieve a kidnapped soldier, that was attacked on Israeli soil. Not to mention the fact that countless kassams have been hitting Israel for countless months. Why should the EU do or say anything other than "please try and cool the situation"?
Israel is justified in my opinion and at the time of writing, no innocents have been killed.

 
At 11:35 PM, July 01, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Correction, two Israeli civilians have been killed.

But they don't count. :(

"Adding to the tension, a Palestinian militant group said it executed an 18-year-old Jewish settler kidnapped in the West Bank. Palestinian security officials said they believed the body of Eliahu Asheri had been found in the West Bank city of Ramallah."

chiefmommy Owl @ CultureForAll

 
At 11:36 PM, July 01, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Correction: One, not Two.

 
At 1:01 AM, July 02, 2006, Blogger Tsedek said...

Steven, re. Olmert. It's not an easy decision you know? Did you read in the printed papers that such an incursion into Gaza could have 200 Palestinian deaths as a result?

I think he's acting very responsible with this. 200 deaths are no waging money but they are lifes.....

Tse.

 
At 1:06 AM, July 02, 2006, Blogger Tsedek said...

Osaid hi - your msg: June 28, 07:44

"Isreal has been occupying West bank since 1967. It has killed tens of thousands "


Could you give me a source for that, please?

Thanks.

Tse.

 
At 6:36 AM, July 02, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

a source for what, the killing or the occupation ?

 
At 8:01 AM, July 02, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

Hello Tsedek
Good day

check this site for the occupation .
same in this site about prisoners, settlements and all.
you can also go to Betselem or physicians for human rights or the UN websites.

thanks

 
At 8:02 AM, July 02, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 9:24 AM, July 02, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 3:02 PM, July 02, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Heya Tse...

It is a difficult decision to make and it must be very difficult to be responsible for making these decisions.

I still think that Olmert could have done better.

 
At 3:05 PM, July 02, 2006, Anonymous The Raccoon said...

Osaid -

I am really looking forward to your answer for my post :)

 
At 3:22 PM, July 02, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

which post exactly racoon..the sandmoneky one or where, link it plz

 
At 3:55 PM, July 02, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

I believe Raccoon means this one. :)

 
At 5:51 PM, July 02, 2006, Anonymous sarit safadi said...

Salaam, Mr. Rashid--I am taking you up on your invitation posted on the other thread.

What is needed from Palestine? Exactly what Egypt proposed --return the Israeli soldier. Then Israel will withdraw. Israel will have to--we have publicly committed to such a withdrawl and the international pressure to comply with that promise will be overwhelming.

Maybe then the parties can move on to the next step, which seemed at Petra to be moving in the direction of starting up the peace process again.

My own theory is that Mashaal looked upon Abbas' raprochement with Olmert with disgust and alarm, and gave the green light to these kidnap operations in order to create war. I'm a cynic -- I don't think that just as peace was being broached again suddenly it was coincidence that this attack happened.

In answer to your other question posted on the other blog, I think you've been misinformed as to what the offer by Barak entailed. It was not three cantons--it was far more than that, and it envisioned the transfer of some Israeli land to Palestinian control to make up for any Palestinian losses in the redrawing of the national maps. Yossi Beilin even later convinced Barak to hand over the Jordan Valley as well. Somewhere in there was a deal that would allow Jewish settlers in the West Bank to remain as Palestinian citizens so Palestine would have a Jewish minority just as Israel has an Arab minority. This may have been a different negotiation, though--there have been so many (Camp David, Geneva, Oslo, Taba, etc.) that I'm beginning to have difficulty keeping the details straight without a book in front of me.

Like most Israelis, I would like peace for my children and yours. I just don't know how to get there in the face of rocket attacks, suicide bombings, and constant demands by Palestinian leaders for the elimination of my state and my people.

 
At 6:23 PM, July 02, 2006, Anonymous The Raccoon said...

Osaid -

As Steven said, the post you said you'll answer to - my long post above (9:05 PM, June 28, 2006).

Peace :)

 
At 10:55 PM, July 02, 2006, Blogger Tsedek said...

Osaid your reaction of 8:01 - I don't see a link??
Do you see one? Is this a problem of my browser that I don't see a link?

Anyway - I meant that you wrote that Israel has killed "tens of thousands in the West Bank" -

If you could just provide me with a link that specifically mentions that please? I'd be grateful :)

Tse.

 
At 11:01 PM, July 02, 2006, Blogger Tsedek said...

Steven:

"I still think that Olmert could have done better."


How? This is a wringed situation, to be attacked but not be able to defend because a civilian population is being hi-jacked.

Tse.

 
At 4:25 AM, July 03, 2006, Blogger Steven said...

Heya Tse - IMHO I think Olmert should have acted sooner.

 
At 7:21 AM, July 03, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

Mrs. Safadi..
Hello and welcome to my blog.

Raccoon and Tsedek, Hello..
I had a problem with the comments ( technical ) so I deleted them.
the link is :
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/nueva_web/

check for the fact sheets at the lower left part of the page.

In case you want international websites documenting the occupation then I am more than happy to find some.

Actually i have been lately searching for such sites and arranging them so as to make a database for myself to help me respond to questions.
I shall put them all in one post and let you know of it

take care gusy
good day

 
At 9:42 PM, July 03, 2006, Blogger Tsedek said...

Osaid, i look at
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/nueva_web/facts_sheets/facts_at_glance.htm

and see the numbers of Palestinians killed as are publicly known (by the Red Crescent) 3,800.

I see no tens of thousands of Palestinians killed in the West Bank...

What am I overlooking on that website?

B.t.w.: a quite reliable source for Palestinian Human rights affairs is the PHRMG of Bassam Eid:

http://www.phrmg.org/profile.htm

Thanks for your link - and sorry for not being able to find what I was looking for, and thank you in advance for your help pointing me where exactly the "tens of thousands " that were killed are mentioned,cause I really can't find it...

take care,
Tse.

 
At 1:10 AM, July 04, 2006, Blogger Osaid Rasheed said...

Tsedek,
Hello again...

I checked the site you provided and i will be going through it son.Thanks.

I will give you REALL NUMBERS of how many palestinians were killed since 1948 until now. Give me sometime to find you the links and the referencing for it. A week or so maybe.

Good day.

 
At 5:22 PM, August 02, 2006, Anonymous Job said...

The arab foolishness that started it all. Arabs will look back on this day with regret.

 
At 1:02 PM, August 18, 2006, Anonymous lennybruce said...

i know that this is a very old post but I hope you are notified of this new post. I have recently started my own weblog and am working on a post over this subject. You seem very knowledgeable and reasonable so maybe you can help me.

I am interested in the background to the kidnapping to put it in a broader perspective. In one of your responses here you list a lot of reasons for the kidnapping but I am looking for a few more specific things. For example, I know (at least I believe I know) that prior to the kidnapping Gaza was still under fairly strict embargo - no active airport, no active seaport, little cross border traffic of people and goods thru either Egypt or israel, continued targetted attacks, etc. I heard somewhere in the last few days, but I didnt make a note at the time, that in the days prior to the kidnapping, an israeli commando team entered Gaza and kidnapped a couple or a few I believe government workers. Does that ring any bells with you?

You may want to took a look at my weblog before you answer if you have any doubts or suspicions about my intentions. Or not. I found your weblog today and will come back often as its people like you (and like me I dare say) where the hope lies for a peaceful, prosperous and hopefully harmonious future in the ME. (if you technorati lennybruce you can also see where some of my first posts ended up on other blogs)

 
At 5:11 AM, March 12, 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

a rational response and question to
a old age question. Peace can only be acheived thur tolerance understanding and acceptance. For centuries fighting has sparked and quelled , innocent lives lost. People must take the first step by interchanging ideas. Israel is the only country in the middle east to have created a democratic and progressive state. Their citizens are the most important element. Israel is a strong and vibrant state that should never negotiate with terrorists. These creatures do not understand life or any form of liberty. The entire world should learn from the past and see that you cannot negotiate or amicably work with such people. "Peace in our Time" is not an acceptable thought. Israel is smaller than the state of New Jersey,it has accepted all people from different nations and has tried to create a progressive state on that all it"s citizens can enjoy a quality of life.

 
At 10:39 AM, December 08, 2010, Anonymous insurance quotes said...

It is not true that the majority of Palestinians want to destroy Israel.People get so mad when they see on TV or infront of their eyes civillians being shot dead by israeli 'blind fire' that is taking their beloved.

 
At 10:12 PM, February 19, 2017, Blogger Halı Yıkama said...

Halı Yıkama
Halı Yıkama Fiyatları

 

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