What is it like in Gaza now ?
What is the situation in Gaza?
/... Dr. Virginia Tilley, a professor of political science, currently working in South Africa: No lights, no refrigerators, no fans through the suffocating Gaza summer heat. No going outside for air, due to ongoing bombing and Israel's impending military assault.../
...
/...And yet, even all this misery is overshadowed by a grimmer fact: no water. Gaza's public water supply is pumped by electricity. The taps, too, are dry. No sewage system. And again, word is that the electricity is out for at least six months.../
Gideon Levy, Ha'aretz, July 2 2006 :
/...A black flag hangs over the "rolling" operation in Gaza. The more the operation "rolls," the darker the flag becomes. The "summer rains" we are showering on Gaza are not only pointless, but are first and foremost blatantly illegitimate. It is not legitimate to cut off 750,000 people from electricity. It is not legitimate to call on 20,000 people to run from their homes and turn their towns into ghost towns.../
...
/...The legitimate basis for the IDF's operation was stripped away the moment it began. It's no accident that nobody mentions the day before the attack on the Kerem Shalom fort, when the IDF kidnapped two civilians, a doctor and his brother, from their home in Gaza. The difference between us and them? We kidnapped civilians and they captured a soldier, we are a state and they are a terror organization../
/..Collective punishment is illegitimate and it does not have a smidgeon of intelligence. Where will the inhabitants of Beit Hanun run? With typical hardheartedness the military reporters say they were not "expelled" but that it was "recommended" they leave, for the benefit, of course, of those running for their lives. And what will this inhumane step lead to? Support for the Israeli government? Their enlistment as informants and collaborators for the Shin Bet? Can the miserable farmers of Beit Hanun and Beit Lahia do anything about the Qassam rocket-launching cells? Will bombing an already destroyed airport do anything to free the soldier or was it just to decorate the headlines?../
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Gideon Levy speaks it all.
I think that everyone has to work to put an end to this suffering. The suffering of the Israeli as well as the Palestinian parents who are losing their kids in 'the battle' day by day.
I can understand how much the people can get angry. Their sons are being killed for a reason and for no reason. They can hardly support their family. They are watching everyday the occupation army running its 'operations'. They also watch those who are being convinced that 'fighting' is the best method to get rid of this nasty occupation and its crimes against the palestinian women and children. This is no excuse, though, to target the Israeli civilians living in Sderot and other villages . In the same way we ask for the protection of our civilians from the occupation and its operations, we have to think the same and not let our anger control us.
We , as Palestinians, have to wake up and show the world that we are a people that deserves to live in dignity and freedom. We have to have the power to stand in front of those who desparetely target Israeli civilians and tell them to STOP acting the same way as occupation.
Free this prisoner and show the israeli people that we care about the human life, and that we are STRONG , and we take that strength from our rights as humans not from capturing a soldier or attacking someone's village.
posted by Osaid Rasheed @ 9:40 AM
132 comments
132 Comments:
Excellent post Osaid.... I might 'borrow' your picture for my blog..
Amen
Thank you for this piece--it's refreshing to hear a Palestinian voice raised against the Qassam attacks and it gives Israelis a reason to hope for peace, and the courage to demand an end to artillery fire into Gaza....it is our recognition of our common humanity rather than our differences which will lead to real peace.
Heyya Osaid... I'll just repost my long comment from your previous post because I am really looking forward to an answer :)
And dude... most of the Israelis do understand the conditions the Palestinians live under, since practically every Israeli over 18 has served in the army. I will explain the Israeli public's thoughts about it below at the best of my Raccoonish ability.
I myself served in Jericho after we withdrew from Lebanon - and let me tell you, it was a place I wouldn't mind living in myself, sans the heat and the terrorist gangs (which were few in Jericho back then). It WAS a good place to live, mind you, before the moronic PA leadershit turned it on its head, destroying everything the Palestinians and Israelis built there during the Hudna (even if it was a false peace. Imagine what would happen if the peace was real!).
I am still baffled about why the citizens of Jericho allowed the terrorists in.
And yes, the Israeli government are also a bunch of morons. The Israeli public wants peace, everyone is sick and tired of this fucked up situation. So everybody pressures the government to find someone in charge and talk to them, to convince the people in charge of PA that peace is better than war. The peaceful Palestinians are a disorganized and silent bunch, it seems - their voice is not heard, they are not in control, and since Palestinians voted the Hamas in, Israelis gave up on finding the peaceful Palestinians. There's just too much support for terror and too little outcry against it in the PA.
Why is it, BTW? Are you guys too terrorized by the "war on collaborators"?
Oh... and here's an example of why there is "occupation" and Israeli operations, or rather why in some places there are no such things:
My wife is from Maccabim. That's about a kilometer away from Beit Tzira - not sure if you know of it? It's a Palestinian village, under PA authority, right on the border with Israel. Until the second Intifada it was a really well-off place - people of Beit Tzira sold much of their agricultural produce in Israel, had excellent tradesmen who were very gainfully employed in Israel (a skilled bricklayer, for instance, was paid at least 40 NIS/hour back then), had good craftsmen who made stuff and sold it in Israel for good money, etc. Relationships were very good - we were just neighbors, like any neighbors.
Then the Intifada began and the borders were closed. The village lost its main source of income. Terrorists came and wanted to use it to attack Israel, but the Mukhtar chased them away and told them not to come back. Their Israeli neighbors try to help them as much as they can, be it by aid or by secretly continuing decades-old business relations. And for the people of Beit Tzira, there is no occupation; there are no IDF operations. Think about it.
Next. Mate... Palestinian Muslim terrorism was a non-stop fact since 1922. Long, long before '67 or even '48. Members of my family were being murdered by Palestinian Muslim terrorist long before '48, just for being Jewish and wanting self-determination. We both know it's not about "occupation" - the PLO was created before '67, with the goal of destroying Israel.
And how can you ignore the contribution of Israel to the Palestinians? Seriously, man... get real and accept the good along with the bad. Only through transparent realism can we find a solution.
Oh... and as for this operation... the people of Israel are sick and tired of the Israeli government not doing enough to protect them. Israelis look for their own - and they have not forgotten nor forgiven the 3 kidnapped soldiers in Lebanon (one of whom was an Arab, BTW). Leaving an Israeli in the hands of these mosters is simply unacceptable, and the government knows it. If Olmert would have gone for the insane (and probably bogus) prisoner exchange option, releasing hundreds of bloody-handed terrorists to appease their bloodthirst, the government would have fallen the next day. You see, nobody knows what to do, exactly - and people now believe that negotioations do not work (see note about Hamas above). So military force it is... even if the two kidnapped kids will die in the process, Israel MUST try to release them. And everybody knows they are probably already dead by now - but Israel has no choice in the matter.
I know that IDF is doing everything in its power to avoid civilian casualties. And I strongly suspect that the terrorists are doing everything in THEIR power to maximize civilian casualties. And I really, really hope that nobody will have to die - the only hope for that, though, is that the citizens will put enough pressure on the terrorist gangs to release the kidnapped.
BTW, Osaid, if you know of any real peaceful movement in PA that can actually do something and does not support the destruction of Israel (really doesn't support the destruction of Israel, not just pretending), please reveal it. I swear that if such people exist and nobody heard of them, I will personally make sure they are known to everyone in Israel and that pressure is applied on the Israeli government to talk to these guys and to them alone.
Peace, bro.
At 11:55 PM, June 28, 2006,
Osaid, you really should find an answer for the Racoon.
REALLY,
R
Raccoon and render..
Give me 2 days , I am relly very busy.
I will give you a thorough and elaborated answer.
Thanks for commenting
Good day both.
Hello Mrs Safadi
Good to hear from you again.
/.."it is our recognition of our common humanity rather than our differences which will lead to real peace"../ : absolutely true.
have a nice day
Raccoon :
/most of the Israelis do understand the conditions the Palestinians live under, since practically every Israeli over 18 has served in the army/
Yes, good point here. I have seen so many soldiers and talked with some of them.A minority of them really feel sorry for what the IDF is doing and they really do not approve Israeli presence ( occupation ) in the west bank and gaza. Most of those who were quite educated about the situation were old ( mostly in their 40's I guess)
There are, on the other hand, a nother part which does not hesitate to show its hatred and disgust for the 'arabs'. Even before the extensive use of the term ' terrorists ' that we currently see, that was the case too.
Regardless, you are absolutely true : the Israeli know very well how much suffering they are inflicting on us. They simply dont care. You once said it Raccoon : /..Personally, I am unhappy that anyone has to be harmed. But I’d rather it be someone else than me../
( sandmonkey site )
We dont have much hope if people think this way raccoon ( sorry to say it, no offence )
Racoon :
to be continued, OK?
Give me time. I ahve to finsih something important first.
thanks
Heyya Osaid. Thanks for answering :)
Yup, there's a huge difference between an 18-years-old Ars kiddie from the poor 'hoods of Netaniya who's just been conscripted into Golani and a 40-years-old yekke professor from northern Tel-Aviv who's been doing reserves duty one month a year for the past 20 years.
Kids are stupid and easily excited. They also tend to see the world in black-and-white. Older men are (sometimes) wise and learn (sometimes) to see the world in shades of gray.
And dude... it's not that the Israelis don't care about the suffering of the Palestinians. It's just that most people see it as an "either" situation - either the Palestinians suffer or the Israelis suffer. And Israelis tend to prefer the former to the latter.
And as I said before, it is a very reasonable and very human understanding. As I have asked before: whom would you rather die, your mother or a stranger who's trying to kill her?
The choice, I think, is self-evident.
And no offense is taken, of course. Even though I believe that I'd rather have someone else die than me, I also believe that we can reach a solution in which nobody has to die or suffer at all :)
Hello Raccoon,
/I also believe that we can reach a solution in which nobody has to die or suffer at all/
Why is the 'either' solutions then ?
Osaid -
Well, because of the Oslo Disaster, and all and any attempts to do anything for the Palestinians. As you know, these have invariably led to dead Jews. Tough measures, on the other hand, have yielded results. It simply appears that the sane, peaceful majority of Palestinians that you're referring to doesn't exist.
Which is why the "either" solutions are so popular lately.
Raccoon, it exists. I think soon as the Palestinians start to focus on what's really important before being able to put claims on Israel: unite....
When there is a lawful, lawabiding government "the" people's voice can be heard. Until that time, I think, fatalists (as I see extremists, terrorists) will keep on taking advantage of the situation and drag everyone further down the sh*tbowl.
If after uniting behind a lawful gov't one still wants to "resist" occupation: fine. At least there will be an institutionalized body for accountability - but somehow I have the feeling that resistance won't be necessary then anymore.....
Tse.
welcome to blogging Osaid! I'm so glad your voice is joining in, and I'll link you on my blog. Don't let the aliyah people intimidate you, be steadfast and speak your mind!
Wishing you the best
Osaid, answer this.
If you care so much about the fate of those in Gaza, why aren't you holding a vigil to release Shalit? It is very easy to end it all - realease Shalit. I know it is easier to play victim and puppy dog, but in fact Palestinians have control over their own fate. RELEASE SHALIT. IT IS SIMPLE. THE ANSWER IS CLEAR. STOP YOUR BULLSHIT PROPOGANDA AND ADMIT THIS BASIC REALITY.
Miss R :
There is an even easier way to end it all..
End the occupation and do support palestinians to establish their government.
I liked alot the last comment of Tsedek. That was great.
/..When there is a lawful, lawabiding government "the" people's voice can be heard. Until that time, I think, fatalists (as I see extremists, terrorists) will keep on taking advantage of the situation and drag everyone further down the sh*tbowl.
If after uniting behind a lawful gov't one still wants to "resist" occupation: fine. At least there will be an institutionalized body for accountability - but somehow I have the feeling that resistance won't be necessary then anymore...../
Tsedek you are a wise man.
Cutter:
Thanks. Ive visited your site several times this week and i will be doing so .
Raccoon ; I will get to the rest of the answer soon.Time plz.
/..It simply appears that the sane, peaceful majority of Palestinians that you're referring to doesn't exist.../
Well : they might not be a majority in the street but they are a majority in their influence and quality.
You asked me to reffer you to some Palestinian sane peaceful ppl ( if any ) , well Raccoon ; I dont know if that was an attempt from you to tell everyone that ALL palestinians refuse peace. You claim that you have a good grasp and understanding of the situation and you claim there are no Palestinian peacemakers?
Look for example at Dr. BArghouthi ( Mustafa ) who DOESNT call for the destruction of anyone and who is actually REPRESENTED in the Pal Prilament.
Azzis Dweik, the head of the Pale Legislative council , whom I know very well, is a wise man, too. Although he is representing Hamas in the council but he doesnt cal for the destruction of Israel nor anyone. One of the major reasons Hamas won the elections is that it choose honest and reliable people like Dwik and others to represent it. These people do not necessarily carry the same ideology of Hamas.
DONT start attcking , RACCOON... !!!
lol
good day all
Mrs Safadi, Raccoon, Tsedek and Steven :
Check this link about IDF and Kids in HEbron
http://peacepalestinedocuments.
blogspot.com/
Osaid:
"Ending the occupation" is far from a "simple" solution and you know it.
Firstly, as I wrote on my blog, the West Bank is arguable legitimately Israel's, and so the word "occupation" is a loaded propogandistic word.
http://cultureforall.blogspot.com/2006/06/occupation-or-not.html
Secondly, it is lunatic to leave the West Bank without some sort of assurance of peace/security.
Thirdly, this would be rewarding terror and inviting more terror.
Fourthly, you know as well as I do that a vast swath of Palestinians will never accept Israel - period. They want to drive Israel into the sea. Leaving the West Bank changes NOTHING until there is a base recognition of Israel.
Fifthly, this ignores he fundamental reality that all that is needed is the releae of Shalit, and then Israel leaves the West Bank.
Open your eyes, beyond the propoganda you espouse and believe. It is CLEAR the Palestinians are in the wrong. It is CLEAR that you are swallowing tripe hook, line, and sinker.
Raccoon :
Would u comment on Miss R's :
/Firstly, as I wrote on my blog, the West Bank is arguable legitimately Israel's, and so the word "occupation" is a loaded propogandistic word.../
??
Miss R... me thinks it is you who are spouting the propoganda, not Osaid. He is calling for peaceful solutions and dialog... you are calling for a continuance of the present crisis.
I think his solution will cost less lives.. not yours. That's all that really matters.
DesertPeace:
Osaid is not calling for the end to the crisis. He knows full well that if Israel releases hundreds of prisoners - people caught committing terror - it would only lead to far more violence and death. It is he who is pro-violence.
I am all for a peaceful solution. So tell the Palestinians to accept Israel as a BASELINE. There is no point in giving up land when it does nothing to guarantee peace, and as in the case of Gaza, only increases the amount of terror aimed at Israel.
Anyone who wants peace would be marching through the streets of the territories, DEMANDING the leaders accept Israel as a baseline.
Oh right, doing so means you will likely get shot dead by the Palestinians. Silly me.
It takes courage to be pro-peace. It takes weakness to desire what Osaid advocates.
I meant to type earlier that all that is needed is the release of Shalit, and then Israel leaves Gaza, not the West Bank. Forgive my typo.
It was your President Rabein who asked for peace and GOT SHOT by people of his own.
Reading through your blog, Miss R makes me feel BAD. the ideas you present are invalid. Actually what you are calling for is WAR.
Osaid Rasheed:
One lone crazy who killed Rabin is not representative of the Israeli population, who has repeatedly given away land in the hopes of peace, and repeatedly done all it can to minimize civilian deaths while targeting the madman who go after civilians.
On the other hand, the Palestinians elected Hamas and do NOTHING to stop the terrorists in their wake. NOTHING.
The contrast is crystal clear.
And for the record, I advocate SURVIVAL for Israelis.
The Palestinians already are engaged in a war with Israel.
We are not engaged in WAR with israel. We dont have an army and we dont have a state. Let me remind you : the whole story is about a people that is fighting for its independence. There are always mistakes but we never got out the the theme.
Miss R... what you advocate is no different than what the occupiers advocate. It is not acceptable as a solution, because it is the reason we find ourselves in this situation in the first place.
You claim that the "One lone crazy who killed Rabin is not representative of the Israeli population"... Neither were the two judeo nazis named kahana and goldstein. No, they were all crazies...
Can you not conceive in your mind that the kidnappers of the soldier, the suicide bombers are not representative of the Palestinian population?
Have you ever spoken to a Palestinian? Have you ever met one that supports the attrocities that are happening? I live in Jerusalem and I never have...
Open your eyes, your heart and your mind Miss R... don't swallow what the zionist government is feeding you.
DesertPeace:
Have I met terror supporting Palestinians? No, I don't generally associate with people who wish to annihiliate me. But it is clear based on the actions of the Palestinians, and recent public opinion polls, in addition to the election of Hamas, that in fact a majority of Palestinians are at least okay with terror.
This contrasts with Israel/Israelis who NEVER aim for civilians and are NOT okay with such actions.
Osaid, the Palestinians are engaged in war with Israel. It is a terroristic war, but it is still a war. If you want to stop it - go out and DEMAND that the Palestinians accept the state of Israel's very existence. You have this in your power. Accomplish something. DEMAND PEACE. Otherwise, you are only further aggravating the situation and ensuring there will be continued warfare.
The future is in the hands of the Palestinians. When they return Shalit and DEMAND peace and DEMAND a recognition of the state of Israel, then peace is possible. Until then, Israel has every right in the world to defend itself against abject terrorism.
Osaid, as a nurse and a professional - a pillar in the community - you can accomplish great things. What is stopping you from rallying for the recognition of Israel's right to exist?
Miss R... it is obvious to me that with your TOTAL lack of the facts, there is no point discussing the situation with you.
Brings back memories of world war 2, all germans I met were cooks in the war,,, there were no soldiers.
All Americans Iv'e met did NOT vote for Bush, yet he is President.
History is full of strange things... and the present situation is no different... people keep on believing what they want even when there are no facts to back them up.
How am I wrong with facts? Please dispute the following:
1) Hamas was elected by a 60% majority. (FACT)
2) Palestinians have yet to rally in the streets against terror or even for a base recognition of the State of Israel. (FACT)
3) Pew Research did a public opinion poll of Muslims worldwide, and the poll showed hatred of JEWS across every nation polled - including Western ones. This is distinct from Israelis. You can read the poll results yourself.
http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=206
Palestinians have it within their power to effect change, but they are either too scared to do anything, or unwilling to do anything.
And that too is a fact.
By the way, I happen to know a very warm Palestinian man - he taught me Arabic briefly. I recognize there are good Palestinians out there. But everything I see suggests they are a MINORITY of Palestinians, and are not doing enough to actually lead to a more peaceful tomorrow.
And for the record, my opinion on the West Bank is that it is legitimately in the hands of Israel, however, when the Palestinians can be trusted with their own state - and not use it as a launch pad for terror - they will get their own state.
It's really quite simple. I am all for peace - sustainable peace. Giving up land and getting war in return is suicidally crazy.
Here is another 'FACT' to put under your hat....
Israeli's elected Olmert as their Prime Minister because of his pledges to withdraw from the occupied territories and continue the 'Peace Process'...
What do we get instead? WAR!
We have without declaration, waged war against the civilian population in Palestine, a NATION that Israel does not even recognise as existing.
All this with the blessings of George Dubya Bush... another FACT.
Yes Virginia, there IS an enemy, and it isn't Palestine.
Miss R - chill, sistah :)
Emotional rhetoric is hardly the right way for a solution, IMO. We need less emotion, not more...
DesertPeace - chill, brother :) The "Zionist government" is not feeding anyone anything. Information is Israel is not constricted, as you should know if you live in Jerusalem.
Kahana, Goldstein and Amir - every society has its scum. Israel is not an exception. The difference between Israel and PA in these matters is that in the former the scum are shunned and outlawed; in the latter the scum are applauded and worshipped.
Next... Osaid, a couple of points:
/Firstly, as I wrote on my blog, the West Bank is arguable legitimately Israel's, and so the word "occupation" is a loaded propogandistic word.../
The PA cannot be legally described as "occupied territory". It is the territory of Trans-Jordan and Egypt, taken in war, and no longer wanted by these states (especially since one of them became a different state since - Jordan). But I don't really give a rat's arse about international law, since nobody else seems to. Me and the overwhelming majority of Israelis are willing to accept most of these lands as a Palestinian state... once the Palestinian people stop trying to destroy Israel.
The checkpoints are a source of major discomfort, yes. But we all know why they are needed, yes? You should know that, for instance, IDF didn't check ambulances once... until terrorists started using them to transport weapons and troops.
Mustafa Barghouti's party got 2.7% of the votes. That's not... very encouraging. I will not get into his assorted statements of anti-Semitic paranoia. He is an angel compared to your next example:
"Our people would not feel any dignity if we did not resist occupation.” -- Aziz Al-Dweik
And he's not talking about Gandhi-style resitance. Sorry, bro, but if Dweik is your example of a moderate... the Palestinians are doomed.
Saying that "He's a senior Hamas member, but he doesn't want to kill all Jews" is like saying "He's a senior Nationalist Socialist-Democrat, but he doesn't want to kill all Jews". Read the Hamas charter.
Next: you say that all that the Palestinians want is independence. It doesn't seem to be the case, though - especially since Israel has been trying to give Palestinians independence for 12 years now and got only terror in return. And then there're the speeches and statements of the chosen leaders of the Palestinian people (almost invariably calling for the destruction of Israel above anything else). And there are the Palestinian school books... the charters of Palestinian political parties and terrorist gangs - which are often interchangeable...
I am not attacking, brother... I am despairing. The ball is, as usual, in the hands of the Palestinians - and so far they have not failed to strap a bomb to it every time. There might be some hope with Barghouti (not the notorious terrorist, the other one :) ) - but only if he actually gets any support.
Peace.
DesertPeace -
If this desert is ever to see peace, mate, we should all start thinking with our cerebral cortex and not our glands. And that includes you, my friend :)
We have reacted with superhuman caution and restraint to thousands of rockets fired on Israeli cities, the daily attempts to smuggle suicide bombers into Israel, the daily attempts at terror attacks in Israel (remember those Israeli Arabs that were showered with Palestinian hot lead while driving home?) and other actions that would have been considered horrible acts of war, breaking any and all international conventions on how wars should be waged. The kidnapping and murder of an Israeli civilian and the attack on a military base inside Israel along with the kidnapping of a soldier from that base are the proverbial straws that broke the camel's back. And Israel is still acting with superhuman restraint and caution - if it was a formal declaration of war, PA would be a pile of smoking rubble.
Olmert vowed to continue with unilateral disengagement, and this is exactly what he's doing. The "peace process" has been clearly and repeatedly shown to be a Palestinian farce... even if this should have been clear from the very start. Hudna indeed.
You're from Jerusalem, you say? I guess you don't eat at Sbarro much, do you?
Or drive down 433?
DesertPeace:
You are not making any logical sense. The Gaza event started after the kidnap of Shalit. This was a PALESTINIAN AGGRESSION. Then, the PRC kidnapped and brutally murdered Asheri.
To the extent there is war, it is the fault of the Palestinians. Period.
"The Gaza event started after the kidnap of Shalit."
Miss R... Where was Shalit when he was kidnapped?
I rest my case.
End of discussion!
DesertPeace -
No thank you, I prefer piggybacking :)
Do you find that my Raccoonish presence disagrees with you? :)
He was in a military base inside Israel, DesertPeace. How does that prove your case?
Heya Raccoon
/..Kahana, Goldstein and Amir - every society has its scum. Israel is not an exception. The difference between Israel and PA in these matters is that in the former the scum are shunned and outlawed; in the latter the scum are applauded and worshipped../
Go and see the LOVERS of Barukh Goldstein in Kiryat Arba... I guess we both have our mistakes my friend ...
Wow so much o write about where to start.
Well one thing - osaid - Can you tell me what the lines of occupation are?? IE where are we occuping at the moment? What Does Israel have to do in order to make Peace?? where does it have to Withdraw to??
Desert, I will 2nd that question on the Israeli Soldier. How does Sitting in a tank protecting the Border rest your case?? They obviously needed to be there, other wise how do you explain that they were attacked??
I was wrong... I'm sorry. Shalit was 'captured' on the Israeli side by terrorists that emerged through a tunnel they dug.
But, the FACT remains that this action was not sanctioned by the elected officials of the Palestinian Authority.
I have said on my own blog, Osaid said it there and here as well, that it is our hope that Shalit be released immediately..unharmed.
I do not support acts of terrorism, neither does Osaid. That is the main point of this comment.
DesertPeace:
Your line about the leadership of the Palestinians is a load of crap, you know it.
If the Palestinian leaders wanted to, they could free Shalit tomorrow. They choose not to, and they choose instead to gamble with human lives.
Osaid,
Sorry to be slightly off topic, but are you aware of this:
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L03653816.htm
Can you explain why the Palestinian Government believes that paying money to Palestinian Health officials is a
"suspicious plot which pretends to provide help, but is aimed at destroying the political and administrative (health) system"
Osaid, thank you for the compliment :) It is WOman as a matter of fact ;)
Miss R, read this article that consists out of interviews taken in "the" Palestinian street and was written straight after Hamas won the elections half a year ago, and tell me, if, after reading it - you can keep your eyes dry. It breaks my heart and (although many claims you make are true and facts) will put a nuance in your arguing I think, about the expectations of Palestinians - other than the ones who are "stealing the show" - You keep on coming back with "do something about it" - but I'm afraid that when sitting between two fires having no fire left in you yourself it is not so easy to "do something"....
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/CF148743-EFB9-462D-BE67-CAB8366CEFD3.htm
"A family with 10 children living under the poverty line is not going to think first about relations of the new parliament with Israel or the US or the EU. He is going to think about how he can feed those children," said Nabulsi.
"Not everything is about peace. We have to get our house in order. We are suffering from a real moral crisis. We need to learn some manners.
Nabulsi continued: "We need to learn how to raise our children properly. We need to clean our streets. And, mostly, we need security. We need to do all of these things before we make can even speak about a state."
======================
My heart breaks - all those expectations for a chance of a better future, and look what's happening now....... :(
Tse.
tsedek:
Anyone who examines the situation, and actually looks at the ROOT of the problem, can easily see it is the Palestinian leadership which promotes terror and refuses any offers for compromise.
I agree that the starving Palestinians is a problem - but you fail to note the root of the problem, which is hate-based lies being propogated, which keep the Palestinian population militant and willing to engage in "shahada" and engaged in a victim mentality, and the Palestinian leadership's corresponding refusal to settle or compromise for anything less than the entirty of Israel itself.
Meanwhile, the common man Palestinian suffers. It's sad, indeed tragic.
Shlemazel..
Morning,
I read the report at the link you provided.
Thanks.
There is much confusion actually. I dont know how right is it to overlap the 'elected' governemt ( no matter what is it ) and working this way. I totally disagree with many of Hamas's ideas and I believe that kidnapping the Israeli soldier and being involved in a military act against Israel was a VERY STUPID decision that they took. In the past Hamas's political wing used to claim that it is totally irrelated to the military wing, now we see that they are not denying this 'separation' anymore so that anyone ( Palestinian or Israeli ) understands that the government( OUR government ) is actively involved in military confrontation with Israel. This is completely insane and unaccepted.
Back to the issue :
Hamas's government is dying. They had a chance but they just screwed, and screwed without even being pushed to screw, this is complete failure, this is failure itself.
For more than 4 months, nurses and doctors and workers at all sectors have not received their salaries. There has been calls to the international community to HELP us, they are simply replying to us ( the people ) and are willingly ready to pay us the salaries. Now Hamas is not ready to accept this help coz its not comming through its body !!
If I were the EU, I would simply say : ok, goodbye !!
Hamas's government with its ideas and plans now is incompatible with life.
President Abbas wil surely intervene very soon.He has to.
I just hope that no one will get hurt untill things come back to normal.
Thanks for the links.
Oh, Shlemazel :
did u also see this at the same link you privided
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/pictures/POP10D.htm
What the hell is this !!! Are we in Iraq ??? This is shameful man. These guns that they carry are not for RESISTANCE am sure !
Osaid:
I am happy to read your comments about your disapproval of the kidnapping of Shalit.
Are you willing to add the extra postscript of "This is what caused the Gaza incursion, and Palestinians need to demand the release of Shalit" ?
Instead of bemoaning the natural reaction of Israel to the heinous kidnapping of the Israeli soldier, doesn't it make more sense to be upset at the root cause of the current crisis? (ie, the kidnapping)
Miss R:
/..Osaid, as a nurse and a professional - a pillar in the community - you can accomplish great things. What is stopping you from rallying for the recognition of Israel's right to exist?../
Answer :
The same thing that is stopping you from rallying for the recognition of OUR RIGHTS.
Miss R you have been denying our rights, you have been trying to convince me that there is no occupation, you have been trying to convince me that we are not a nation ... I read through your blog and feel that if people like you were in charge in Israel there would be a WAR at the BEST estimations, if not total annihilation of these " scum" or "terrorists" who are taking and draining your "gifted and promissed land " !!!
I am far ahead of you , I believe !!! I am at least accepting Israel, and acknowledging the rights of the Israeli and jewish people to live in peace . I am ahead of u !!!!
Start thinking about yourself, at least RALLY more peaceful ideas in your brain, not in TelAviv streets !
Raccoon , what do u think ??
And hey, thanks for answering the previous one...
Good day man
Are you accepting of Israel's base right to exist? Then why don't you see how the Palestinian leadership's failure to accept Israel's base right to exist is the root part of the problem?
I recognize that Palestinians have a right to exist, however, I do not believe they have an inherent right to the land, and I see history as having been constructed of lies and half truths that have been accepted as a non-reality of "occupied territories."
I am all for the Palestinians having their own state, knowing this means they would kick out every Jew who lives in the West Bank, if they can prove themselves to be trustworthy with a state - ie, not use it as a launchpad for terror.
Do you not see how Gaza has simply become a launchpad for terror? How giving over land has only resulted in MORE terror against Israel? I see a historical reality where the Palestinian terrorists only seem to understand force, and only back down when the Israelis use the force necessary to stop them. It is NOT "violence begats violence." Rather, it's "Palestinian violence is only stopped when Israel provides the necessary force to stop it."
This is a sad reality we live in. I do not like it. I wish the world were different. But it's how things are.
Miss R :
/Instead of bemoaning the natural reaction of Israel to the heinous kidnapping of the Israeli soldier, doesn't it make more sense to be upset at the root cause of the current crisis? (ie, the kidnapping)/
Again, the root cause is occupation. We were not living in HARMONY and suddenly Hamas kidnapped a soldier, WAKE UP !!!
I dont wish any harm for Shalit, and i am sure our President is doing what he can to bring him back. But lets NOT forget the 10,000 palestinian Shalits at the Israeli prisons and lets not forget ..... ahhhh..many other issues...
NOTE :
ALOT of the prisoners inside Israeli prisons are being held for political reasons. RELEASE THEM.
there is NO relation between SHALIT and our prisoners, although those who kidnapped him ask for the release of Palestinian prisoners. israel should have released SO MANY Palestinian prisoners long before Shalit's kidnap, dont you think so ?
Raccoon , say something !!
Stop this collective punishment policy against us please, just stop it.
And Raccoon...
I can understand the reason behind putting these many checkpoints. To some extent they are important for your security, i will pass over this point. But would you just tell me one thing : WHY everyone is being humilated ?? Why these checkpoints are adding more hatred instead of doing what they are intended to do 9 sort out the "terrorist group" ??
Why these checkpints are stopping children from passing to their schools? Why these checkpoint are being used for more collective punishment ?
Raccoon ; allow me to tell you that you need to work more on your army.
Osaid Rasheed:
The Palestinians held in Israeli prisons are people who attempted terrorism and were caught. They are not "political prisoners." Your moral equivalence between them and Shalit, who was on mere border patrol and NOT HARMING ANYONE inside greater Israel when he was kidnapped speaks volumes.
Tsedek :
that link from aljazeera tells much
Thank you.
Osaid Rasheed:
Let me quote you: "Stop the collective punishment against us."
But you ARE collectively at fault for the actions of your government, unless you decide to take action and STOP THE VIOLENCE. At least in America, there are constant protests to the war in Iraq. Hell, even in Israel there are protests (which I disagree with) concerning the Israeli government's actions.
Please show me one, that is right, one, protest of Palestinians WITHIN THE TERRITORIES, against the Palestinian government and its endorsement of terror. Please show me ONE PROTEST asking for the acceptance of the State of Israel. Please show me ONE protest that attempts to change the status quo and suicide bombing.
I have yet to see it, and I would like to.
Miss R ;
/I recognize that Palestinians have a right to exist, however, I do not believe they have an inherent right to the land, and I see history as having been constructed of lies and half truths that have been accepted as a non-reality of "occupied territories."/
Your sentence just doesnt fit together, try to rephrase it plz.
You recognize our right to exist BUT.... !!!
Rally more thoughts in your brain again..
Miss R, an all
/This is a sad reality we live in. I do not like it. I wish the world were different. But it's how things are.../
With the previous ideas you expressed I see this sentence just irrelevant !!
You wish the world was different...how ?? Well, taking into consideration your previous statements, I think you should wish Palestinians never existed !!!
hehehehe
Miss r What do u like to be called, try to give urself a pen name coz I dont lke to use numbers or abbreviations when talking with people.
Osaid:
Let me be more clear.
I recognize that Palestinians exist and that they have ties to the West Bank and Israel proper. I do not recognize any inherent right to their own state, or see how their claim is any more significant than Israel's claim to the same land. However, I would like to see peace, and if peace were possible by granting land to the Palestinians, I would be all for it, despite knowing that it would result in the expulsion of every Jew currently residing in the territories. I also recognize that, in the long term, Israeli control over the territories is a bad idea from a demographic perspective. However, I have my eyes wide open, and it is quite clear that granting land to the Palestinians would actually result in MORE TERROR against Israel. History speaks to this - ie, the current crisis in Gaza. Giving up land does NOT result in peace, because the Palestinians would not be content with merely the West Bank - they want the entire State of Israel.
Given the absolute security necessity of the West Bank, in light of this reality, I think it would be suicidally stupid of the State of Israel to give up the West Bank at this juncture. Until the Palestinians can be trusted to have their own state, and NOT use it as a launchpad for terror, they will not get their own state, nor do they deserve it.
Miss r :
Check the israeli Campaign against home demolitions, and check the peace now ( Israeli ) sites and you will see how many palestinian-israeli protests were held against terrorism and against violence.
I wouldnt like such protests and i wouldnt want to have them if I were you...coz simply , having your ideas , you will be the one protested against !! You are calling for war Miss R... at least stop it ..or you need protests ?
Me, DesertPeace, Raccoon, and Tsedek will protest for you, dont worry !!!
Wont you friends ?
Oh, and it is you, Osaid, who is pro-status quo and pro-war.
Your acceptance of the falsehood that Palestinians are victims and the Israelis ruthless aggressors only perpetuates the problem. In fact, the Palestinians have far more power over their own fate than you accept.
I would like peace. But the only way peace is possible is if Palestinians stop their victim mentality and decide to become invested in their future, rather than Israel's destruction.
Again..
/Until the Palestinians can be trusted to have their own state, and NOT use it as a launchpad for terror, they will not get their own state, nor do they deserve it./
Oh yea, we don't deserve OUR land !!!!
Say something Tsedek !!
Osaid:
The campaign against home demolitions are protests against Israeli actions. You have yet to show me a single link to a single article of Palestinians IN THE TERRITORIES, protesting against PALESTINIAN ACTION.
I would like to see this.
Osaid Rasheed:
The land is not clearly "your land." Israel has just as much claim to it. I wrote a post, which I already cited on here, speaking to the falsehood of "occupied territories."
Btw I just want to state this. Sorry if I come off as a bit strident. I am very passionate about this issue. The truth is that, despite our disagreements, I am quite enjoying this exchange. You can see me praising you on my blog.
(see last comment: http://cultureforall.blogspot.com/2006/06/true-evil.html)
Good day all...
There was a lion and a rabbit. The lion was very arrogant: he though that the whole place is him and only for him. he never accepted that he is part of the forests structure.The lion used to beat the rabit for reason and for no reason, sometimes claiming that the rabit is a trouble maker, sometimes claiming that he is not well respected..many reasons to cliam you know, he is the lion who would argue him !
He would always and most often beat the rabbit coz the rabit is trying to build his own house without his permission. The rabbit became sick of being beaten day and night for trying to build his house, so he went to take advice from the horse, who told him to simply stop to avoid being beaten.
the next day the lion passed and wanted to give the rabbit the daily dose of beating, but the rabbit was not building anything anymore..
the lion's arrogance was stronger than justice or reason, he slapped the rabbit again telling him " why did you stop building " ???
Were your goverment considering our rights before the Qassams and before the armed resistance?? You are feeding terrorism Miss R, you surely do !!
And you claim ; we dont want to negotiate with terrorists to release th soldier...
IRONIC , right ?
Hi Osaid,
I'm not sure I would want to protest for Miss R... I'm not sure we could agree on issues to demonstrate against.
Know that we are on the same side of the struggle for justice.
Living our lives the way we do Osaid is in itself a demonstration, lives void of hatred and hostilities. It is a load demonstration that people hear.
I am not quite sure what you are implying here, but Palestinian terrorism formed prior to 1967. The PLO formed in 1964. Palestinians were offered their own state on multiple occasions and have refused every time. (most recently, Olmert's attempted "unilateral withdrawal plan - universally panned!) They don't know how to say yes!
Again you view the Palestinians as puppy dog victims, when in fact terror against Jews began prior to even the formation of the State of Israel. It began in the 1920s, with massive Arab riots against the Jews.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/riots29.html
So your statement just doesn't make sense, and is historically inaccurate.
DesertPeace:
Let me quote you.
"I'm not sure I would want to protest for Miss R... I'm not sure we could agree on issues to demonstrate against."
WOW. All I asked for was proof there were protests against Palestinian terrorism, and/or protests demanding the Palestinians simply recognize Israel's very right to exist. You are Israeli. If you don't believe in those basic things, I have no idea why you would be in Israel. And if Osaid doesn't believe in those things, that in and of itself is proof of endorsement of terror.
Somehow the prior link did not work. Let me try again...
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/riots29.html
Raccoon ,
Hello
/We have reacted with superhuman caution and restraint to thousands of rockets fired on Israeli cities, the daily attempts to smuggle suicide bombers into Israel, the daily attempts at terror attacks in Israel...
Super human caution and restrain?
Would you want me to refer you to more articles from gedeon levy about the brutality of occupation???
The 'merciful occupation'...this is how should we start calling it from now on !!
We should also add more revisions to Oxford and Longman Eng. dictinary to start using terms like 'peaceful war' and the 'gentle brutality'... and what about the 'human rape' ?!!!
heheheh
oh plz Raccoon....oh plz !!!!
but dont worry my 'enemy friend' i will just 'disapprovingly accept' it !!!!
heheheheh
Damn. Just go here:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/
riots29.html
Osaid Rasheed:
Any article of the "brutality of occupation" can be easily refuted with the base reason for the need for harshness on occasion - ceaseless Palestinian terror.
When terror ends, Palestinian life improves.
Hello..
/(most recently, Olmert's attempted "unilateral withdrawal plan - universally panned!) They don't know how to say yes!/
Are you kidding ????
You call Olmert's plan a peace plan ???
It is a SHAME !
Miss R.. I told you earlier that I have no intention of continuing a discussion with you. You read what you want in a way that you want.. rarely reading what the other person has to say.
My comment about demonstrations was in answer to a comment from Osaid, not from you.
Why I live in Israel is none of your concern. As for Osaid supporting terrorism, this is just another example of you NOT READING WHAT OTHERS HAVE TO SAY.
You are very ignorant of the facts Miss... in fact, totally void of them. You have no idea whatsoever what life is like in the occupied territories, the struggles just to buy a loaf of bread.. spending holidays without loved ones because the wall separates families, there are just two examples.
Osaid is an amazing young man, he sees the evils of both sides of the wall... yet people like yourself rant on about demonstrations and terrorism instead of giving him encouragement.
Shame on you!
Hello all..
Check this post :
http://wakeupfromyourslumber.blogspot.com
The sky will fall on Gaza !!!
how superhuman !!
Raccoon : Mr. Olmert is even winning the race with Hamas ( towards the bottom ).. he is learning fast !!!!
Raccoon :
good morning man !
As stated repeatedly, I view the plight of the Palestinians to be the fault of the Palestinian leadership. (but I recognize the plight of the Palestinians)
Desertpeace has yet to prove a single thing I have said wrong, yet said "I don't have a grip on my facts." Whatever.
I note that no one has been able to show proof that there has ever been a single demonstration inside the territories against the Palestinian leadership, or for the base recognition of Israel.
I am happy Osaid is willing to see Palestinian fault, but reading what I have read of his comments on my blog and of his comments here, he still swallows the common lie of Palestinian victimhood, and still places the majority of the blame on Israel.
Oh, and Osaid's comment about wakeupfromyourslumber...
I will say this. I was a fence sitter on the Israeli-Palestinian issue, prior to reading the tripe on that blog, written by a fellow classmate of mine.
(examples of the party line espoused are Israel's likely involvement with 9/11, and how Mossad in fact are the real suicide bombers)
I became so shocked after reading constant attacks against Israel - most of them in the vein that I describe above and clearly supported by Neonazi commentators, that I decided to take a crash course in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and devoured books and material on the subject.
Funny you should mention the post about "the sky falling." Israel has yet to kill a civilian in the entire Gaza incursion, and all it is asking for is Shalit.
So much for the "sky falling." So much for human rights violations. So much for a lot of things.
If you are going to QUOTE me... then don't change my words...
"You are very ignorant of the facts Miss... in fact, totally void of them."
DesertPeace:
My quote did not change the meaning of what you said. Here is the bottom line.
Prove that I misstated facts.
I will admit I was wrong, if you can prove I misstated a single fact. You said I am "ignorant" of the facts. So where am I ignorant? I genuinely want to know where you can prove that a single statement I said proves ignorance of facts.
One last thing before I leave for the day...
Whenever I read about the plight of the Palestinians, and the poverty they live in, my heart goes out to them. It must be difficult to be Palestinian. However, my next thought is not to demonize Israel, but rather to see how the Palestinian leadership's inability to compromise in any way has resulted in real world problems for the Palestinians that are being ruthlessly exploited in order to continue the violence.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Damn, I should have previwed that post for grammatically errors. I am deleting it and retyping.
(I should have left, but I will now!)
Osaid and DesertPeace:
I never said that all Palestinians are terrorists. However, the "moderate" Palestinians do nothing to stop the suicide bombers and terrorism within their midst, Osaid included. That is a FACT. Osaid also believes in the Palestinian victim mentality that is part of the problem. I have yet to see that one disproven.
Are there good Palestinians? Sure. But why aren't they raising their voices against terror? I asked for a single instance of this, and no one can provide me with it. That, combined with the 60% vote for Hamas, and recent public opinions polls portray facts on the ground that perpetuate a reality of the majority of Palestinians being perfectly fine with terror, and a minority of Palestinians not doing anything to rock the terror supporting boat. That makes them enablers.
Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Before I start replying, I would like to beg everyone for calm. Being emotional about this subject is hardly productive. Actually, it's really, really unproductive.
So, while I understand everyone's emotional involvement (Miss R, Osaid, DP) - please try to use the cerebral cortex and not the glands. Pretty please?
~~Waves at Raccoon~~
;)
Peace Raccoony..
You are right..lets just calm down.
Osaid, Miss R. isn't meaning bad. Her tone is somewhat rude to understate it, but she is NOT having no heart for "Palestinians" - only having a hard time understanding that it isn't that easy protesting them and, with having two enemies (the terrorgroups and Israel as they see it) rather confusing and downright hard to make two statements.
Miss R. there are so many brave Palestinians that are conducting their own private "war" against the terrororganizations, if you'd only read between the lines.
A neighbor of a friend of mine in Gaza had his 12-year old son being shot in the head a couple of years ago when he refused terrorists to use his garden as launching pad for firing their qassams!!
There hardly was a notice of that in the newspapers :(
And, look at the following article, what do you say about that man - that has just lost 7 family-members?
"We the Palestinians are stuck in the middle between the Israelis and terror groups. I am not angry. From my land no Qassams have been fired and if the do I'll take their eyes out. If you want to fire Qassams don't come to my house, fire from your house."
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3261374,00.html
Look at the ugly replies in the talkbacks. Shame, shame, shame!!!
One has to detect humanity first and recognize it - before coming to such strong opinions about "another people"!! Just open your eyes.
Osaid I kinda agree with Miss R. in that - that handing over the WB at this moment has a great risk in it not only for Israel (as miss R. calls it launchpad for terrorists) but that actually those factions will be in charge and leave no room for democratic resistance against them on the intern either.
What do you think of that?
Tse.
It takes Raccoon already 6 hours of intensive writing in order to answer as I notice LOL
Tse.
OK. Allow me to summarize the points stated above:
The Palestinians are, generally speaking, against Israel because they claim that Israel is occupying them. The exact borders of the "occupied territory" is still pending (Osaid? :) ), but according to the current ruling party of PA is includes the whole of Israel.
The means Palestinians use to fight against Israel and the perceived occupation are largely horrid and inhumane (see terror).
Israel is feeling threatened and is making life difficult for Palestinians in an attempt to provide security against terror.
The overwhelming majority of Israelis, reflected in the Israeli government, want a two-state solution as soon as possible. So far, however, any attempts at bilateral negotiation of a solution have been in vain; the chief reason for this appears to be the genocidal agenda of some of the Palestinian terrorist gangs/political bodies and the utter corruption and nihilism of others. In light of this understanding, Israel's negotiation with these bodies was foolish. But they had little choice - the Israeli people really believed that there was someone to talk to on the "other side".
The Palestinian people have failed to demand an end to the violence, to demand a two-state solution and to create a reasonable ruling body. The reasons for this are also pending (Osaid?).
Israel is far from perfect. The young conscripts are, more often than not, a bunch of tostesterone-fuelled morons. Their behavior is causing more hatered, since they fail to differentiate between innocent Palestinians and terrorists, and thus fail to treat the former with respect. Moreover, this is a known fact; IDF is staffing checkpoints in calm areas with veteran reservists (who treat Palestinian civilians with respect) and checkpoints in problematic areas with young Golani and Maga"v troops. Some claim that the latter is a form of collective punishment, but that it debatable.
And last, but far from least:
The Palestinians are responsible for their fate. It's up to the Palestinians to stop the violence; it's up to Palestinians to vote for people like Barghouti (the nice one, not the psychotic one :) ). It's up to the Palestinians to reform their hate-filled education and media, to change the rhetoric at street level.
The "war on collaborators" declared by the various terrorist groups makes it somewhat difficult, but not impossible. An explanation as for why none of the above has yet happened on any meaningful level is still pending (Osaid? I am asking for lots of answers, I know :) ).
However, once Palestinians will manage to show real non-violence and acceptance of Israel - without tricks, without calling peace "temporary ceasefire to regain the strength to destroy the other side (Hudna)" - they will simply have... peace. And a state. And if this will be real, there will be not only peace but prosperity on a scale as yet unwitnessed on this Earth. Ironically, Palestinians have been so far the most succesful and resourceful among Arabs.
Awaiting further input.
Unfortunately, this Raccoon is a busy little furry critter. Politics for me is what sport is for other people :)
Tsedek,
The article you posted is the first HOPEFUL sign I have seen re: the Palestinians. That said, it is not indicative of any organized push for the Palestinians to fight the terror.
It is good to see individual action, but has there ever been any collective fight of Palestinian terror? I have not seen a single example of it.
raccoon ;
your last summary is just PERFECT.
Well done bro.
that really makes sense.
:)
Tsedek :
/...
A neighbor of a friend of mine in Gaza had his 12-year old son being shot in the head a couple of years ago when he refused terrorists to use his garden as launching pad for firing their qassams!!
There hardly was a notice of that in the newspapers :(
.../
There are more incidences like this one. Its not that they are being underestimated but the acceleration of events is not allowing space for discussing every detail....
I have witnessed such events and heard of similar situations.
Miss R. : isnt this better than a 'SINGLE rally against pal terror '? Tsedek has just gave you the answer.
Thanks Tsedek, you touched an important point, very important.
Osaid:
/Miss R. : isnt this better than a 'SINGLE rally against pal terror '? /
I'm afraid that the answer is no. Disorganized resistance to terror is useless - as we can infer from Tzedek's post, for instance, it tends to result in the death of the resisting person. But if 200,000 Palestinians organized and marched on the streets of Ramallah, demanding peace, equality before Palestinian law, end to terror and a two-state solution... can you even IMAGINE the media fest on this one? Just think of the reaction in Israel and abroad to this - sure, Iran and Syria (founders and funders of many of the terrorists) will be furious... but every sane country will do ANYTHING to support such a movement.
And the terrorists cannot kill 200,000 people. Nor can they stop them, because among 200,000 random Palestinians there are people who personally know ALL the terrorists, their mothers, their addresses, their clans... the terrorists would have no chance against something like this.
It will be vastly safer and more effective than individual resistance, mate.
Raccoon... I would love to see 200,000 + demonstrate against terrorism in the occupied lands.. as would Osaid I'm sure.
This cannot hapen spontaniously... it takes organising. Those that would attempt to organise such a thing would be putting their lives on the line... and nothing will be accomplished.
That is why you are not seeing it happen.
The 'mind' of the terrorist is a demented one... he would have no problem killing his own people if he thought they were hindering his 'cause'.
People should realise these things before they make blanket condemnations of the entire Palestinian nation...
The situation is different in Israel, there are many immigrants from the west and from Europe. It is easier to organise anti government activities here. Things will change for the Palestinians one day and they too will enjoy the 'right to dissent'.
Miss R. have you forgotten 12-year old Ahmed Ismail Khatib who was shot dead by Israeli soldiers because he was carrying a toy-gun that resembled a real gun and whose parents donated his organs ?
Are you aware of the bereaved parents circle that consists of israeli and palestinian families who have lost family in this conflict? You should go have a look at that site. Touch more the individual human voices i/o only look at the surface where only the strongest, but not necessarily the majority, can be heard.
Tse.
I haven't had a chance to follow this debate, and will try to later, but I don't agree with Racoon that the Palestinians are responsible for their fate. That is to say that a person who is being raped brought it on. This is frankly absurd and totally incorrect.
Then he or she says there is a "nice" Barghouti and a "psychotic" one.... Hm, Racoon is able to judge, standing from where he is that the actions or person of one of them is psychotic. Well, I actually just came here now to tell Osaid that there is a THIRD Barghouti who is the person who sent me the pix of Hebron, and of course you can put them up on this site and send the entire series around. Omar sent them to me and we never found out who the author was, but the pictures speak louder than a million words.
Thecutter - you're the anti-Israeli fanatic person, are you not? Marwan Barghouti is a dangerous mass-murderer. Muhammad Barghouti is a pro-democracy activist who is actually appears to be looking for a solution. From what I have seen of your opinions, you would dub the latter "insane" and the former "hero". So, how's that thoughtcrime trial of Mrs Fallaci coming along?
DesertPeace - how do you propose the Palestinians should take the power back from the terrorists in their midst? So far it seems that the power of the terrorists is only growing, fed by the hate-laden Palestinian education and media. I can but look with utter horror at the growing generation of Palestinians - breastfed the most atrocious propaganda, stuffed to the brim with hate and the desire for a violent death... I am afraid that the time of the Palestinian moderates is running out.
Osaid, you're working with kids, right? Could you reply to this?
Peace.
Osaid,
Thanks for the link (many, many, many comments ago).
Aren't they total morons? It gives us hope and it's the source of danger. Loose they will, but how many idiotic actions will they fullfill before the end?
I will join the call to protest. If the people really cared about it, they would find a way to protest. Even if it's not orginized well.
Why are groups like the ISM not trying to orginize something like this?? Or are they to busy Sheltering terrorists??
Desert, Maybe you should start something.
My fear is that at this point there arn't 200,000 people who want peace on the other side.
Racoon, I am one of the millions who you would call a "fanatic" anti-Israel person. I just happen to have a blog on it, so I suppose I am that one you refer to who judges Fallaci like the racist psychopath that she is.
If you agree with her assessments, you too are a violent Islamophobe.
http://peacepalestinedocuments.blogspot.com/2006/03/hebron-idf-vs-palestinian-children.html in case you want to see the way that the nice IDF prevents children in Hebron from going to their school.
Oleh,
The ISM is too busy protesting terrorists and demonizing Israel to even THINK to organize a protest against terror, or even for the recognition of Israel.
Cutter, you're a conflict instigator that loves this conflict while staying out in the safe areas not getting hurt. You're a vampire really. I don't even have the will to read your blog other than that 1 posting where I left my comment. Putting oil on the fire while staying far away. I wish we could just transport this conflict to Italy so your family would get hurt by it, instead of you having a good time on our account.
Raccoon: you're sooooooooooo pessimistic :(
Try the "people's voice" will win attitude ;-)
Tse.
Cutter,
I will 2nd tsedek.
You might have convinced yourself with the lies you publish, but there are those of us who know better.
Amazing, for people who claim they don't read my blog, they sure seem to know a lot about it. What lies are there, care to elaborate and we can bring it out into the open?
As to sitting comfy in my safe European home, at least I never took up any fabled "Right" to "return" to a place that belongs to other people and tell them to leave or force them to, to accommodate my own desires, just because I was accidentally born into a family whose religion thinks it can make that kind of claim on lands. I am much prouder of this refusal to steal and will continue to defend those who have been robbed as long as I breathe.
You have no right to criticise me for "not being there". You actually, seem to think you have a lot of rights to tell people what to do. I told you to stay off my blog, because there I can do it. Here, I can only say what an idiot you are.
cutter,
you seem to not want anyone who can think, to read your Blog, but I saw that post of another Blog, and... well I couldn't really find anything to comment on... But that again I have a hard time arguing with those who think the world is Flat also...
BTW - Telling people to leave your Blog is a great way to bring peace.. but oh ya.. you (like your dear friends from Hamas) don't want peace - you want to Drive every last Jew into the Sea, and kill as many as you can in process.. well you know what - F-You - We are NOT LEAVING OUR COUNTRY!!!!
Cutter, love... why don't you find a new hobby? Something that doesn't include nurturing hatred and trying to derail peaceful communication between people?
No wonder Rome fell, if it had people like you. Let me guess - if you are of age with Oriana Fallaci, you you of the kind that resisted the anti-Fascist underground? Maybe ratted on some fellow Italians, helped to point out Jews and dissenters, yes?
Machiavelli would have had you executed. Leonardo DaVinci would have been ashamed to know you. It is because of people like you, dear, the ilk of Mussolini had such success. It is because of people like you, love, that Franco and Hitler got the support they got.
You are a disgrace.
Sorry dear, you seem to misunderstand a few things. This thug comes to my blog to insult me. I tell him to not bother. I leave his blog alone, so what is he coming to my place to agigate for?
Second, It is not the Palestinians who are engaged in Ethnic cleansing against the Jews, but it is Israel, as the State of the Jewish people, and in their name, that is doing it to the Palestinians. Some of it is subtle and simply making life so impossible that they pack their bags and leave, other times it is far more obvious, like tearing down their homes or not allowing them to build in the "unrecognised villages" where Palestinians live in Israel proper.
So, until you can find the "Lies" you claim I write, I will simply treat you will all the contempt you seem to merit. I want peace, but it is you, with your lack of compassion and your Fuck-U's, telling me I told you to leave the country or somesuch of your wild illusions of persecution who is too blind to ever allow that anyone else has rights that need to be recognised, and their positions must be heard if there is ever going to be peace. You are a hinderance to peace, but your type is made like that. I have to get used to it. Our host here is probably new to all of this, and hasn't seen the settler, aliyah babe and zionist ugliness as it appears on internet as "friend, we can have a dialogue" (until the moment the dialogue strays from the set direction of assigning equal footing to oppressor and oppressed.
Racoon, can we get a real argument to sustain in favour of Fallaci than what you have provided? What is so fine about her? Her hatred of Arabs of course appeals to you, but I prefer brotherly love.
Yes, Cutter, we can have an argument about Oriana Fallaci. She is a brave woman who risked and risks her life to defend her people and her culture from an attempt to destroy it. She is someone whose blood boils when she sees the likes of you, dear, giving up everything your forefathers achieved in thousands of years - giving it up in the name of cowardice, in the name of complacency, in the name of pseudo-intellectual fashion. She is someone who actually loves her country and her people and her culture.
She's a fighter, dear - a woman who has fought all her life, has been shot numerous times, wounded, left for dead. She has been walking on the fine line between life and death, suffering attacks of every kind - day in and day out, since childhood - so that you could enjoy your easy life and have the freedom to throw filth at her.
But this madly corageous woman is not the issue here. Your attempt to disrupt a discussion is. Please stop - civilized people are trying to communicate here.
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cutter: i have no idea what you wrote on your blog because i was there only once and that was too much already. as i said be4: you blablaat. enjoy your little hate-fest and keep on boiling in your own juice. it's good you have found yourself a nice little game to pass the time with. enjoy.
Cutter,
May I remind you that the only places here that are ethnecly Clean of Jews are the one Controlled by Arabs!! But don't let that fact get in the way of your Argument!
As for the Unrecognised villeges, do you even know what you are talking about or is it some more Hate that you read somewhere and figured it matched your "I hate Israel" Image. I don't know if it's even worth waisting my time trying to explain it to you. But if you would like I will give you some Backround.
I also see you have a lot of respect for Jews In general - as you managed to Categorize us all into 3 groups, good job there.
Oleh, you know nothing about development towns and unrecognised villages? Inform yourself:
Electronic Intifada, 10 marzo 2005, here
If you turn a blind eye on what is happening to Palestinians in Israel and in the OPT's you really should be careful to talk about peace. Peace means "leave us in peace", not, "let's live together".
And, while you're at it, with a little attention, you might see that the Categorical item wasn't written by myself, its author was clearly identified, as are all the contributors to my blog.
On Fallaci.... The woman is simply boiling in hatred, and perhaps you don't see it Racoon, because it looks normal to you.
If you turn a blind eye on what is happening to Palestinians in Israel and in the OPT's you really should be careful to talk about peace. Peace means "leave us in peace", not, "let's live together".
Obviously, (implicitly), The Leave us in Peace is what the Israelis say. There is an article on this very issue on my blog by Avigail Abarbanel, former Israeli.
Cutter,
I rest my case about you finding some line in some site. You will just have to trust me when I say I know about the Subject a lot more than you.
As for Peace. - Ya I have no problem with "Let us Live in Peace" and don't Bother Us! At this point I will settle for "Hate me but leave me alone to Live my life" but then again every time Israel Offers something to the Palestinains - Jews Die on Busses and Cafe's.
I will make you a deal. Israel will go back to Negotiations and In return a Bus or Cafe Blows Up in Rome every Week. And if that's not enough After we complete Stage one - WE will move onto "Homemade" Rockets. After 1000 of those Fall on YOUR house come back here and we will continue to talk about Peace!
Could you guys just leave that italian fascist alone please?? This is a discussion between palestinians and israeli's and she's just puting her poisen and lead this whole thing between us to the same propaganda shit as can be found everywhere else. Just don't react to her -
I used to like this blog a lot, being able to speak between us, but with that witch roaming around here and spoiling OUR good discussions with her OUTSIDER venemous comments, I must conclude, that outsiders once again have hi-jacked OUR case.
Tse.
Tse, I will gladly leave the site if the host asks me to, and provides a reason for it.
I don't think you are the one setting the rules, nor did I call you fascist, probably idiot, but there are idiots everywhere, and fascism is a particular political policy that is practiced in your State, not mine anymore.
Cutter I was not asking for you to leave the site, but to stop reactions to you because you take serious discussion into a lea-way of outsiders HATE. You don't have to call me a fascist for me to call you one, don't you get that?
Tse.
Cutter - you are so blinded by cognitive dissonance that you cannot even react to my words in any meaningful way when they fail to be in complete agreement with your own views.
Please, I ask you again - stop trying to disrupt the discussion. Yes, you got it right - leave us in peace, don't bring your hate and bigotry into a civilized conversation.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Tsedek and Oleh - just ignore her. This is my last reply to this woman - I strongly advise you to take a similar course.
hello again..
Ive been following the discussions : Let's just all calm down a little, alright?
I would want to confirm that in this comment page, we want to lead a peaceful dialogue that may lead us somewhere closer to an end of this situation. Let us drop some issues and concentrate a little upon major points like the rights of both people to live safely.
tsedek, cutter, oleh and raccoon good day to you al.
Raccoon:
where was that link that talked about the chemical head fired somewhere at Israel ???
fast plz?
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3267293,00.html
But I think it was a bluff, Osaid.
Why the hurry? And what the hell are you doing up at this hour, mate? :)
I woke uo to check the comments and responses. i was busy but now i finsihed.
You have arabic media that talked about that bluf ?
Uhm... not sure about Arabic media... google up Palestinian+Chemical+Weapons+Israel
In English and Arabic... see what you come up with. It's been reported in very respectable Israeli papers and confirmed by various authorative sources. I would do it for you, but I don't write in Arabic and I am off to bed anyway - waaaaay past my time now :)
G'day :)
Osaid, Yes, it would be nice to be able to "dialogue" with Israelis, yet, experience has shown that when you actually criticise anything they say, they come out with epithets that merely display their view that they alone have the right to express their opinions. Being called a witch and a fascist, a liar, a hate-monger and etc., is never very fun, but it is edifying for witnesses to see just what gets thrown at you when you dare to confront them.
To be left in peace Ms. Oleh, if only Israelis could leave Palestinians in peace. They have just invaded Gaza, or have you been sleeping through it?
And, you may wonder, why do I get involved? Well, being a Jew, that State thinks it can use it's filthy practices "for me" and for All Jews Everywhere, and I say loud and clear, NO. So, if they insist upon making this State Jewish and not giving back the rights, at the very least the Right of Return to all the innocent people who they deported because they weren't born "lucky" like me, I have the duty to tell whoever might listen that this State does not have this right, because it violates the precedent rights of others, and I won't stand for it.
You may have noticed, although it doesn't seem to count much, international law does not permit what Israel has done. So far the violations and atrocities are so much that they have simply become "accepted", but where racism rears its ugly head, I feel I have the obligation to speak out. Isn't that what went wrong 60 years ago? That people didn't speak out against it?
Don't use double standards just because you got a nice comfy job and home at a discount price.
Cutter,
Your Jewish?? Oy If that is True this is trully a sad day!
If your Jewish - you will understand the Following: Of the 4 sons, you would be the Rasha, and in that case I really have nothing more to say to you.
If you don't know what I am talking about stop pretending to be Jewish, And if you do know, Start acting more like the Chacham and not like the Rasha, Spreading Lies about Fellow Jews is Lashon Hara.
Oy, I don't know what "your" talking about, because a long time ago I have tried to unlearn anything I ever knew out of shame. Isn't that sad? I think it is terrible that that wonderful religion was used as a justification to oppress other humans.
As far as I'm concerned, people will label me as a Jew because people before me in my family practiced that faith, so to them I am a Jew. In my opinion, I am simply a person like any other, and if I had to CHOOSE, I would be Palestinian.
Steven, you fail to realise that perhaps the Hamas represents the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories, where they were permitted to vote, but all the diaspora Palestinians, and the Palestinians who, unlike Settlers in the Occupied Territories, could not have any voice in who was being elected to run the PA, did not get to vote.
I admire the steadfastness in adversity of the Palestinian people, and their immense tolerance to the abandonment that others demonstrate to them, solidial in word, but not in deed. The Palestinian people is a great people that has never oppressed others. I am ever humbled by them and I support their struggle unconditionally. No matter who they elect to govern them. They have the right to resist.
As, so you're a kapo, cutter? How rather fitting.
*vomiting*
Racoon, what good does it do to insult me, calling me a Kapo? Is my "blood" so important? Look, I don't want to talk about ethnic background. It has nothing to do with knowing what is right and what is wrong.
Osaid, I wish you all the best in the world, I can see you are an extremely kind person who is trying his best to allow others to be heard. I only want to say this, because I have seen it everywhere. So many of these Israeli bloggers will do nothing but insult anyonw who is not seeing things as they do, and then they complain because there is no "dialogue". They simply want more space to make their monologue. I think you have to seriously think about what you are doing. I've been blogging for almost two years, and I can say I've seen a pattern.
I think that if you write the posts you do, select material that is important to you, attempt to be published in other sites (Information Clearing House, IE, etc), you will reach many people with your message, rather than have to deal with bullies who insult you and whoever adamantly supports the Palestinians' right to live in peace in their homeland. Think about it.
Most of your interlocutors will be glad to learn I won't bother with "communication" with them. But, from time to time, I'll check your blog out and hope it develops into something useful for you and others, and not just a bulletin board for Israelis to "say" they are peacelovers, while defending atrocities.
Steven - if what I think is correct, then it has got to do with a lack of desire to be named a collaborator, tortured and then publicly executed in cruel and unusual ways.
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